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Another High Sec PI tax thread

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Vhan
Scalebane Syndicate
#21 - 2011-11-30 22:29:34 UTC
I am very surprised that the tax was modified. Most MMO developers have learned from other MMO mistakes to not mess with their core carebear playerbase. CCP is not playing it safe with this change, that is for sure. It looks like a similar balance change that negatively impacted salvaging profits.

Changing a popular playstyle (granted, PI is slightly more advanced than combat and mining) can shell shock their largest playerbase and drive them away.

The fallout of the tax rate change will take a while to settle, as far as market price readjustments and the shock to PI participation. Until the general fallout subsides, my advice is to wait and closely watch what the market does, while producing in PI and adjusting to that market.

Me: I'm speculating and not exporting from planets for at least a week or two.
Nova Valor
Nunc per Ludum
#22 - 2011-11-30 22:36:59 UTC
Build storages on ur current planets and just keep the stuff there. I just tore down my 10 planets on my 2 chars, and i wont put em up untill i can see a profit doing it again.

Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-30 22:49:38 UTC
Nova Valor wrote:
Build storages on ur current planets and just keep the stuff there. I just tore down my 10 planets on my 2 chars, and i wont put em up untill i can see a profit doing it again.



Yes. Less supply and stable demand means more isk for me.
Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-11-30 22:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Mercy
Puissant wrote:
So, PI products that don't sell well should no longer be produced, thereby increasing the demand and FURTHER raising the next month's averaged costs for all goods in a tier.

You honestly don't see how flawed that is? Costs will just continue to rise, as will your percentage tax. I don't care for hyperbole in arguments, but this is a run-away tax hike. It will never get better, nor stabilize. At best, all you do is shutdown HiSec PI. If that's what CCP wants to do, fine. But don't keep telling your players that PI is for everyone.

In my example of P2 goods, 9k as an average is way high for most P2 goods. You don't average all P2 goods together if you want to tax them. The demand for P2 goods varies greatly by good and by day even.


To CCP: I'm down with ISK sinks. I am. I believe we should have more. 17% tax averaged across the board kills production for half of the PI goods and discourages even more people from doing PI. The market was fine where it was before. We weren't creating ISK with PI, just moving it around.

You wanna tax non-ISK generating revenue sources? Tax roid mining. See what kind of response you get then.


Buddy, the tariff levels wont' be changed again frequently. But I *am* telling you to cease contributing to the oversupply of certain types of PI product because there is no profit there. Move to the products with the best prices.

Before the P2 tariff levels where such that even at 100% tax level is was only about 3% of the market value. I feel that what they have now is about right.

You've not really given a good reason apart from "This nerfs my plays style / PI goods"

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2011-12-01 00:28:48 UTC
It is a change to "playstyle". It is a notable change across the general PI area and playerbase -> hence, change of playstyle.

And making more threads should just keep happening unless a mod comes and says otherwise.

Better off stopping the brilliant mind who came up with this change. Last thing we need is more changes like these. If they want to keep it that way fine - but no more changes for the love of quafe. I don't want to see a new PI change for the next three years then, because I'm sure it will just be more of a disappointment.

~ and the same bug features still present.

I wouldn't feel so safe about endorsing this as "the greater good" as it can and will backfire if PI-Bro strikes again. On top of all this, not a smart move as there will be a minor setback on certain PI alt accs -> more postpwnage for Dust514 and World of Darkness \o/

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#26 - 2011-12-01 00:44:49 UTC
Hey, you know what we should tax? Firing weapons. I think 5% of the value of the ammo expended would be ideal.

Frankly, this is not sustainable. and there's no way they would not adjust the rate, so passing the cost along to the buyer is pointless, as it just serves to drive the tax rate higher.

Also, there is a serious case of overlooking the effect existing stockpiles of low demand items will have on the prices for the foreseeable future. Items like Oxygen will not be profitable for some time to come, due to the huge stockpiles of it. I currently myself have enough O2 to run my poses for the next 10 years from the oxy output of one high sec gas giant.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-12-01 00:57:40 UTC
Hmmmmm............ I'm only playing, not yet for a year and in PI for a couple months, but I'm still making good profit in high sec.
Raw stuff all the way up to T4.
Sell in Jita. It still works.
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-01 01:00:57 UTC
Flurk Hellbron wrote:
Hmmmmm............ I'm only playing, not yet for a year and in PI for a couple months, but I'm still making good profit in high sec.
Raw stuff all the way up to T4.
Sell in Jita. It still works.


This change happened, quite literally, hours ago. Talk to us in a few weeks and tells us how profitable it is.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-12-01 02:55:04 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hey, you know what we should tax? Firing weapons. I think 5% of the value of the ammo expended would be ideal.

Frankly, this is not sustainable. and there's no way they would not adjust the rate, so passing the cost along to the buyer is pointless, as it just serves to drive the tax rate higher.

Also, there is a serious case of overlooking the effect existing stockpiles of low demand items will have on the prices for the foreseeable future. Items like Oxygen will not be profitable for some time to come, due to the huge stockpiles of it. I currently myself have enough O2 to run my poses for the next 10 years from the oxy output of one high sec gas giant.


Ok the first point is a meaningless comparision, but I am sure you know that.

As for point 2, Passing along the cost makes perfect sense and would stablize in a few adjustments of the index. The tax rate will not be "higher", it will stay at 10%. The index may go up, but passing the full amount on the the buyer will stabilize in a few adjustments. Do the math.

If there was even no tax previously.

First index is 500 and tax rate is 10% means 50 isk in new tax
Passed on to customer driver prices to 550. Tax is now 55 with 5 being "new"
Price goes to 555, tax to 55.5 and only .50 is new and needs passed on.

See quickly stabilizes.

And for the last point, yeah that sucks, make something else.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#30 - 2011-12-01 04:06:15 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:
[

As for point 2, Passing along the cost makes perfect sense and would stablize in a few adjustments of the index. The tax rate will not be "higher", it will stay at 10%. The index may go up, but passing the full amount on the the buyer will stabilize in a few adjustments. Do the math.

If there was even no tax previously.

First index is 500 and tax rate is 10% means 50 isk in new tax
Passed on to customer driver prices to 550. Tax is now 55 with 5 being "new"
Price goes to 555, tax to 55.5 and only .50 is new and needs passed on.

See quickly stabilizes.


Let me just copy/paste the rebuttal I already provided to that argument that, apparently, you did not read.

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Let me stop you there:

Price is 500. Your export to move to a factory planet. You've gone up 55. You import. Now it's 80. You export the new materials. Now it's 180. You need 1700 units. Now it's 306000.

So, you tack that 306,000 on to the price. This drives the price of the item up 25% on the market, reducing the value of isk.

That, boys and girls, is known as inflation.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-12-01 04:14:44 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:
[

As for point 2, Passing along the cost makes perfect sense and would stablize in a few adjustments of the index. The tax rate will not be "higher", it will stay at 10%. The index may go up, but passing the full amount on the the buyer will stabilize in a few adjustments. Do the math.

If there was even no tax previously.

First index is 500 and tax rate is 10% means 50 isk in new tax
Passed on to customer driver prices to 550. Tax is now 55 with 5 being "new"
Price goes to 555, tax to 55.5 and only .50 is new and needs passed on.

See quickly stabilizes.


Let me just copy/paste the rebuttal I already provided to that argument that, apparently, you did not read.

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Let me stop you there:

Price is 500. Your export to move to a factory planet. You've gone up 55. You import. Now it's 80. You export the new materials. Now it's 180. You need 1700 units. Now it's 306000.

So, you tack that 306,000 on to the price. This drives the price of the item up 25% on the market, reducing the value of isk.

That, boys and girls, is known as inflation.


And you are daft to not understand its not you paying the tax, its the end user when you jack up the prices.

You think Exxon worries about Govt adding new tax to gas? Hell no, they pass it on to you cause they know that you are too lazy to change your habits over a 10-25% rise in gas prices. Demand stays steady and Exxon continues to make money.

So fine your price jumps from 500 to 625, CCP readjusts and the tax index changes to 625. Yields 12.5 more isk in taxes.
Price adjusts to around 700 for all your tax inflation levels. Yields 7 isk in addition tax. See diminishing effect not run away inflation.

Good lord is math that hard.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#32 - 2011-12-01 04:30:17 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:


And you are daft to not understand its not you paying the tax, its the end user when you jack up the prices.

You think Exxon worries about Govt adding new tax to gas? Hell no, they pass it on to you cause they know that you are too lazy to change your habits over a 10-25% rise in gas prices. Demand stays steady and Exxon continues to make money.

So fine your price jumps from 500 to 625, CCP readjusts and the tax index changes to 625. Yields 12.5 more isk in taxes.
Price adjusts to around 700 for all your tax inflation levels. Yields 7 isk in addition tax. See diminishing effect not run away inflation.

Good lord is math that hard.




... Oh dear GOD is basic economics that hard?

While Exxon does not worry about it (actually they do, however...), every other industry ***** the bed. Why? Because it drives up their costs. Every cost. Raw materials. Shipping, labor, so on and so forth.

Let me use something I've learned. Every 25c at the pump is $1.75 in additional costs to manufacturing. And there is a limit to what people are willing to pay for a given item, regardless of what you seem to think

As the price rises, demand decreases. However, you're still stuck with the item. Now if you want to move product, your options are to either sell at a loss, or hold your product to see if the market improves.

You seem to think that demand is constant in this game, however, if can and has fluctuated in the past. As the price of T2 rises, more and more players opt for higher end tech 1 over the cost of losing tech 2, particularly in PvP, which has the highest item turnover rate.

This leads to the demand for tech 1 rising and the demand for tech 2 falling. Eventually the prices for Tech 2 will come down again, but only due to low demand and people deciding to sell at a loss.
Linka Romanov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-12-01 04:52:58 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:


And you are daft to not understand its not you paying the tax, its the end user when you jack up the prices.

You think Exxon worries about Govt adding new tax to gas? Hell no, they pass it on to you cause they know that you are too lazy to change your habits over a 10-25% rise in gas prices. Demand stays steady and Exxon continues to make money.

So fine your price jumps from 500 to 625, CCP readjusts and the tax index changes to 625. Yields 12.5 more isk in taxes.
Price adjusts to around 700 for all your tax inflation levels. Yields 7 isk in addition tax. See diminishing effect not run away inflation.

Good lord is math that hard.




... Oh dear GOD is basic economics that hard?

While Exxon does not worry about it (actually they do, however...), every other industry ***** the bed. Why? Because it drives up their costs. Every cost. Raw materials. Shipping, labor, so on and so forth.

Let me use something I've learned. Every 25c at the pump is $1.75 in additional costs to manufacturing. And there is a limit to what people are willing to pay for a given item, regardless of what you seem to think

As the price rises, demand decreases. However, you're still stuck with the item. Now if you want to move product, your options are to either sell at a loss, or hold your product to see if the market improves.

You seem to think that demand is constant in this game, however, if can and has fluctuated in the past. As the price of T2 rises, more and more players opt for higher end tech 1 over the cost of losing tech 2, particularly in PvP, which has the highest item turnover rate.

This leads to the demand for tech 1 rising and the demand for tech 2 falling. Eventually the prices for Tech 2 will come down again, but only due to low demand and people deciding to sell at a loss.





You vastly overestimate both the impact that an increase in PI cost will have on T2 manufacturing and the elasticity of the demand for T2 mods. No one is going to give a crap if their favorite T2 mods cost 1.1m isk instead of 1m isk. People will continue buying T2 equipment regardless of whether it increases by a few percentage points, because it offers a clear advantage in both PVP and PVE.

Look at any T2 build cost spreadsheet and you can see that even doubling the cost of PI components doesn't have a major effect on the T2 manufacturing cost, because they are dwarfed by the expense of the T1 item and the invention cost of the BPC. As has been pointed out in other threads, the POS fuel costs don't have a material impact on the monthly cost to run a POS, so even the reacted moon mineral components aren't likely to increase in price very much.

All that will happen from this change is highsec PI will end up just as profitable as before, low and nullsec PI will end up more profitable, and consumers will pay a pittance extra for T2 equipment and POS fuel.

Even a 10% increase is unlikely, due to the fact that the majority of T2 prices are related to the cost of the blueprint (and thus the datacores and BPC used to invent it) and the T1 module rather than the PI materials or T2 components.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-12-01 05:06:22 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:


And you are daft to not understand its not you paying the tax, its the end user when you jack up the prices.

You think Exxon worries about Govt adding new tax to gas? Hell no, they pass it on to you cause they know that you are too lazy to change your habits over a 10-25% rise in gas prices. Demand stays steady and Exxon continues to make money.

So fine your price jumps from 500 to 625, CCP readjusts and the tax index changes to 625. Yields 12.5 more isk in taxes.
Price adjusts to around 700 for all your tax inflation levels. Yields 7 isk in addition tax. See diminishing effect not run away inflation.

Good lord is math that hard.




... Oh dear GOD is basic economics that hard?

While Exxon does not worry about it (actually they do, however...), every other industry ***** the bed. Why? Because it drives up their costs. Every cost. Raw materials. Shipping, labor, so on and so forth.

Let me use something I've learned. Every 25c at the pump is $1.75 in additional costs to manufacturing. And there is a limit to what people are willing to pay for a given item, regardless of what you seem to think

As the price rises, demand decreases. However, you're still stuck with the item. Now if you want to move product, your options are to either sell at a loss, or hold your product to see if the market improves.

You seem to think that demand is constant in this game, however, if can and has fluctuated in the past. As the price of T2 rises, more and more players opt for higher end tech 1 over the cost of losing tech 2, particularly in PvP, which has the highest item turnover rate.

This leads to the demand for tech 1 rising and the demand for tech 2 falling. Eventually the prices for Tech 2 will come down again, but only due to low demand and people deciding to sell at a loss.






Lets see, I made T2 items for about 6 months. I seem to recall the majority of the cost was associated with the invention, and moon goo products.

Please continue on with you assertion that the change in PI taxes will drive up all costs in EVE in a run away fashion, it can only help business for those of us who continue to manufacture and pass on the costs to a willing market.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#35 - 2011-12-01 05:08:42 UTC
Linka Romanov wrote:


You vastly overestimate both the impact that an increase in PI cost will have on T2 manufacturing and the elasticity of the demand for T2 mods. No one is going to give a crap if their favorite T2 mods cost 1.1m isk instead of 1m isk. People will continue buying T2 equipment regardless of whether it increases by a few percentage points, because it offers a clear advantage in both PVP and PVE.

Look at any T2 build cost spreadsheet and you can see that even doubling the cost of PI components doesn't have a major effect on the T2 manufacturing cost, because they are dwarfed by the expense of the T1 item and the invention cost of the BPC. As has been pointed out in other threads, the POS fuel costs don't have a material impact on the monthly cost to run a POS, so even the reacted moon mineral components aren't likely to increase in price very much.

All that will happen from this change is highsec PI will end up just as profitable as before, low and nullsec PI will end up more profitable, and consumers will pay a pittance extra for T2 equipment and POS fuel.

Even a 10% increase is unlikely, due to the fact that the majority of T2 prices are related to the cost of the blueprint (and thus the datacores and BPC used to invent it) and the T1 module rather than the PI materials or T2 components.



They do give a damn when it costs 2m instead of 1, however. For some reason people keep coming back to the tax only being 10% of the average, per item. The effect of a 40% increase in a handful of PI items when PI was introduced has led to a 100% increase in a variety of T2 over the last year. Remember that small increases at the bottom of the manufacturing chain have large impacts at the top.

And, I doubt I am. Granted, we may not see 2006 prices with a T2 Tach beam costing 75m isk, but there is a limit, boys and girls, and while those of us with deep pockets may not care, it does matter to pvp players working on a budget.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#36 - 2011-12-01 05:22:13 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:


Lets see, I made T2 items for about 6 months. I seem to recall the majority of the cost was associated with the invention, and moon goo products.

Please continue on with you assertion that the change in PI taxes will drive up all costs in EVE in a run away fashion, it can only help business for those of us who continue to manufacture and pass on the costs to a willing market.



I've made them for 4 years, and if you bought your datacores, you're doing it wrong.

I'm going to make a few assumptions here:

Assumption one is that most successful T2 manufacturers have lvl 4 research agents pumping out RP like madmen to get their datacores.

Assumption two is that that same majority buy moon goo products, due to various monopolies on the best moons.


The major driving items here is the cost of PI. Not only do tech 2 items include them, but the POS requires them as fuel. (and still does, though in different amounts)

'Historically' no, Linka, you are correct, PI costs have not had a serious impact on POS fuel.. however, this has changed. I just produced enough robotics to see me through my usual three month cycle. Previously, this would have set me back about 2m. However, this time it set me back 5m.

I ran the numbers as I set up a month cube supply: previously a POS cost approx 35-40m per month per small. Now it's closer to 50m, and I produced myself every PI item. That's a 20-30% increase in cost of operations. You cannot tell me that this will not have a impact on production further up the chain.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-12-01 05:31:38 UTC
If it makes yall feel any better I've made about 40% on pre-patch speculative investments. Thanks, pmchem!

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
I Legionnaire
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-12-01 05:46:23 UTC
Do your PI in lowsec, problem solved.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#39 - 2011-12-01 08:43:51 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

I've made them for 4 years, and if you bought your datacores, you're doing it wrong.

I'm going to make a few assumptions here:

Assumption one is that most successful T2 manufacturers have lvl 4 research agents pumping out RP like madmen to get their datacores.

Assumption two is that that same majority buy moon goo products, due to various monopolies on the best moons.

Oh, wow. So "datacores I get from my agent are free" and "moon goo I mine myself is free"?

Quote:
The major driving items here is the cost of PI. Not only do tech 2 items include them, but the POS requires them as fuel. (and still does, though in different amounts)

So, why not "PI products I extract myself are free"? Oh, wait, is that why you are crying so much about the tax?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
I Legionnaire
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-12-01 08:58:06 UTC
Wait, so are people saying that inflation is a bad thing? Last time I checked there was a firehose of ISK pumping into the system, I'm glad CCP are implementing some changes to combat it.
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