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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#2101 - 2014-04-07 04:33:00 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
What many avoid mentioning (including Ripard Teg who also avoided answering his emails) is Sohkars response to what Erotica1 did in his own words...

Read about it here.

Pretty strong indictment that people rushed the barricades on his behalf a little prematurely, and are projecting their own personal biases into the mix.

F


Ripard Teg created a witch hunt. He used the right words to incite people that all ready had a disliking of scammers, gankers and awoxers and took advantage of it.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2102 - 2014-04-07 06:37:26 UTC
Tysun Kane wrote:
Man I am just learning about this incident from the Cap Stable podcast I listen to. IMO this RL harassment just went to far BUT I also believe that the only thing that CCP seems to think is wrong is that it made it to there forums and that brings it to to the large audience and including all the new players we have had lately. This is the world that CCP has created and has allowed to happen with in there game mechanics. Everyday the forums and in game chat channels have complaints about grievers and scammers and CCP hasn't done anything because its all apart of EVE and its mechanics. CCP is in a tough spot right now. There actions with this indecent will show the gaming world what EVE and CCP truly is deep down, and that's scary. I for one am sure about one thing, a MMO that allows such behavior to go on without a permanent ban for the main toon involved and ALL others that helped it get to that point. If that doesn't happen the human being inside myself cannot be apart of a game like that and continue to financially support a company that allows such behavior even if the guy was stupid that doesn't change anything. So its ok to make fun of and take advantage of any mentally disabled people in the world just cause we can and its in the game mechanics? NO that's ******* disgusting and I wont be apart of that. And anyone that condones such behavior you all should be ashamed of yourself for even posting in that persons defense.

This kind of thing has happen before. So when will the playerbase finally have enough?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.357599-Eve-Online-Panel-Encourages-Harassing-Suicidal-Player
So you listened to one side of the story in a clearly biased podcast. How about listening to the other side:
http://funkybacon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/e1sohkar-getting-full-story-in-35-hours.html

Funkybacon took the time to get as many people on to speak about it on eve-radio, managing to get both Erotica 1 and Sohkar. Ripard Teg refused to go on, since he will only speak to people about it if they are 100% on his side, which is also why he wont speak to the actual victim who is against him on this.

In honesty, taking a position of power and using that power to bully someone you don't like out of game is far far worse than anything Erotica 1 has ever done. Do yourself a favour and make sure you get all sides of a story before mindlessly siding with scum like Ripard Teg.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2103 - 2014-04-07 11:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Loko Crackhead
@ Brusanan

Please search and get acquainted with "Reductio ad absurdum" arguments. Erotica and Shokar had a battle of wits ,if you will, Shokar lost and Erotica continued his humiliation instead of picking the winning and call it a day. I don't care about Teg's motives, if he did this in good spirit or not is tangential for the matter at hand.

@Lucas

I don't have to listen circular arguments for hours on end to make a decision and to form an opinion. Judging strictly on the bonus room podcast is all I've done. That podcast is not about politics, that one is about a scam and how it was concluded.
Also keep in mind that the entire bonus room podcast was recorded with the prize, EVE in-game assets, on the table. Those items were used as leverage by the scam-ers over the victim, it wasn't just your regular third party voip rubbish talking.
Quote ".... at what point do you have to stop?" Are you looking for divine intervention here? I can only tell you the point I'd stop but can not demonstrate beyond all doubt that there is the stopping point. CCP (and they are as close as god for EVE as possible) showed you their limit, now is up to you to respect it or not.

Being a douche is one thing being douche and taking pride in it is another. The later has an attribute that annoys people to no end and despite your search for absolute truth and wisdom such is the society of man that it will deny you participation even in the absence of absolutes. Cool


P.S. edit If by meta-game you people understand grieving others until they lose all reason, I don't want that type of game-play in EVE. Just opinion don't go all crazy about it.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2104 - 2014-04-07 11:17:03 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Being a douche is one thing being douche and taking pride in it is another. The later has an attribute that annoys people to no end


Then those people should find something a bit more important to let themselves get annoyed about, shouldnt they

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2105 - 2014-04-07 11:29:29 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Being a douche is one thing being douche and taking pride in it is another. The later has an attribute that annoys people to no end


Then those people should find something a bit more important to let themselves get annoyed about, shouldnt they


Smile Perhaps but then we should first define "important" and that's a head-ache on itself, don't you think?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2106 - 2014-04-07 11:31:41 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:
I don't have to listen circular arguments for hours on end to make a decision and to form an opinion. Judging strictly on the bonus room podcast is all I've done. That podcast is not about politics, that one is about a scam and how it was concluded.
So in short, you haven't listened to all perspectives, you've listened to a single recording, without even listening to the victim in question and made a decision based on that limited view. Maybe you should expand your knowledge on the subject some.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Also keep in mind that the entire bonus room podcast was recorded with the prize, EVE in-game assets, on the table. Those items were used as leverage by the scam-ers over the victim, it wasn't just your regular third party voip rubbish talking.
Would it change your perspective any if you realised that the bonus room has paid out to participants on some occasions? So it is in fact possible to win the bonus room. And does that mean singing for ransoms should be banned? What about if a corp member has to suffer abuse from a corp leader who could boot them leaving their items stranded in a station they can't access? That we are told is fine, and if it gets out of hand should be reported to the authorities. Why does CCP not step in there?

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Quote ".... at what point do you have to stop?" Are you looking for divine intervention here? I can only tell you the point I'd stop but can not demonstrate beyond all doubt that there is the stopping point. CCP (and they are as close as god for EVE as possible) showed you their limit, now is up to you to respect it or not.
No, Im asking a simple question. CCP have stated that it must stop when there are clear signs that the other party is upset right? So what if you kill a ship and the other player is clearly upset. Must you leave the pod? What if you bump a freighter for a while and the owner gets upset? When do you stop?
Beyond that, what mediums are they covering. If someone abuses me on twitter following an in game encounter, is that bannable? or is it just voice comms? There's a lot of questions here that really need to be asked, because CCP have clearly stepped away from what they have always said before which is "if it doesn't happen in EVE it's not our problem to deal with". To put it purely down to "stop when the victim reacts negatively" is opening up a huge unknown area where the line will be drawn arbitrarily. Without clarification it destroys choices as people are force to err on the side of caution.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Being a douche is one thing being douche and taking pride in it is another. The later has an attribute that annoys people to no end and despite your search for absolute truth and wisdom such is the society of man that it will deny you participation even in the absence of absolutes. Cool
Different people get annoyed about a lot of different things, but that sounds remarkably like their problem. If someone having fun their way annoys you, then ignore it or do something about it. Plenty of people are annoyed at NPC corp hugging carebears and so they fight against them. They don't start up a hate campaign against one of the more well known carebears.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2107 - 2014-04-07 11:34:06 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Being a douche is one thing being douche and taking pride in it is another. The later has an attribute that annoys people to no end


Then those people should find something a bit more important to let themselves get annoyed about, shouldnt they


Smile Perhaps but then we should first define "important" and that's a head-ache on itself, don't you think?


Possibly....

But when someone turns to having a rant, or a rave, or just swearing because Ive found their position undefendable, thats usually a good sign to me that they arent important anywhere but in their own mind, and the one thing we aren't short of in this game is arrogance.

Cant say Im at home to Mr Imneverwrong

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2108 - 2014-04-07 12:17:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So in short, you haven't listened to all perspectives, you've listened to a single recording, without even listening to the victim in question and made a decision based on that limited view. Maybe you should expand your knowledge on the subject some.


Please don't do this. Don't act like anything Shokar said after has any relevance. The poor bastard put himself on the strings in the bonus room so it din't required much effort to play him like a violin.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Would it change your perspective any if you realised that the bonus room has paid out to participants on some occasions? So it is in fact possible to win the bonus room. And does that mean singing for ransoms should be banned? What about if a corp member has to suffer abuse from a corp leader who could boot them leaving their items stranded in a station they can't access? That we are told is fine, and if it gets out of hand should be reported to the authorities. Why does CCP not step in there?


Win the bonus room! Hmmm yeah and the pigs nest in trees. And some stuff on the lines of " Look at that ugly **** over there isn't this one suddenly looking better?"

Lucas Kell wrote:
No, Im asking a simple question. CCP have stated that it must stop when there are clear signs that the other party is upset right? So what if you kill a ship and the other player is clearly upset. Must you leave the pod? What if you bump a freighter for a while and the owner gets upset? When do you stop?
Beyond that, what mediums are they covering. If someone abuses me on twitter following an in game encounter, is that bannable? or is it just voice comms? There's a lot of questions here that really need to be asked, because CCP have clearly stepped away from what they have always said before which is "if it doesn't happen in EVE it's not our problem to deal with". To put it purely down to "stop when the victim reacts negatively" is opening up a huge unknown area where the line will be drawn arbitrarily. Without clarification it destroys choices as people are force to err on the side of caution.


Use you common sense mate it will take you a long way. Most of us avoid bans using it and if we can I'm sure you can too.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Different people get annoyed about a lot of different things, but that sounds remarkably like their problem. If someone having fun their way annoys you, then ignore it or do something about it. Plenty of people are annoyed at NPC corp hugging carebears and so they fight against them. They don't start up a hate campaign against one of the more well known carebears.


CCP has to balance politics on what annoys the most and w/o having any data I think I'm safe to say that behavior like the one displayed in that podcast by both parties is annoying to the majority of their costumers or potential costumers.

Ramona McCandless wrote:


Possibly....

But when someone turns to having a rant, or a rave, or just swearing because Ive found their position undefendable, thats usually a good sign to me that they arent important anywhere but in their own mind, and the one thing we aren't short of in this game is arrogance.

Cant say Im at home to Mr Imneverwrong


You can't be there that's my address Blink (do I need to say kidding?). Is this a bit of ad-hominem? Please say it is cause i was afraid i'm failing to make a point absent any ad-hominem attacks.
One would argue that everything is in our own mind and the funny thing is that based on our minds we have to create boundaries were there are none just to make our life and games Blink possible. Yeah I agree that too much boundaries are a bad thing but total lack of them is bad as well.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2109 - 2014-04-07 12:25:05 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:

You can't be there that's my address Blink (do I need to say kidding?). Is this a bit of ad-hominem? Please say it is cause i was afraid i'm failing to make a point absent any ad-hominem attacks.


I wasnt talking about anyone in particular, as the majority of the forums are full of Mr Bighead (that's a Rocko's Modern Life reference btw).

Loko Crackhead wrote:
One would argue that everything is in our own mind and the funny thing is that based on our minds we have to create boundaries were there are none just to make our life and games Blink possible. Yeah I agree that too much boundaries are a bad thing but total lack of them is bad as well.


Everyone's boundaries are different.

In life and online (which is part of the life experience, though this game (EvE) is a Roleplaying Game, and an RPG allows you to create characters who can be drastically different from who you or I are in our lives away from pixelspace) everyone has a different idea or right and wrong, of boundaries they can and cannot cross.

I spend a lot of time in all places seeing how far I can stretch those boundaries, and whether thye are worth having or not.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2110 - 2014-04-07 12:46:19 UTC
The next time someone kills one of my expensive ships I'm going to report them for "Cyber-Bullying"!... I'm still trying to recover from the emotional trauma when those meanies destroyed my Nightmare!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2111 - 2014-04-07 12:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Loko Crackhead wrote:
Please don't do this. Don't act like anything Shokar said after has any relevance. The poor bastard put himself on the strings in the bonus room so it didn't required much effort to play him like a violin.
Of course it's relevant. The whole point of this decisions is based around how upset the victim is. Of course his point of view is relevant, as is the point of view of Erotica 1. The recording is only 1 part of the situation. Even while that was going on, they were communicating via text based chat, so all you've got is a single point of view. Making a decision purely off that is pretty silly.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Win the bonus room! Hmmm yeah and the pigs nest in trees. And some stuff on the lines of " Look at that ugly **** over there isn't this one suddenly looking better?"
Well there we go, you have no interest in facts, only in your own opinion based off of restricted knowledge. There have been winners... Oh wait, all Erotica 1 alts, right? Set up years ago in preparation for this right?

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Use you common sense mate it will take you a long way. Most of us avoid bans using it and if we can I'm sure you can too.
How? How do you use common sense to determine if some idiot on the internet you've never even met is going to freak out and start screaming? The way the rules are being stated, if you do anything once a player shows distress, you can get banned. You can't preempt the low tolerance bar of some people. This basically leads to a situation where all you have to do is shows signs of distress and everyone has to leave you alone.

And no, most of us avoid bans because CCP don't act on people getting upset over pixels. Up until this situation, they've stated clearly it's not their problem and even made their very own HTFU video. Now they've set a precedent for banning someone for something they've done outside of eve, and not even because the victim was upset, but because one CSM member didn't like it and started a witch hunt. I honestly can't understand how people can see that then use the phrase "common sense".

Loko Crackhead wrote:
CCP has to balance politics on what annoys the most and w/o having any data I think I'm safe to say that behavior like the one displayed in that podcast by both parties is annoying to the majority of their costumers or potential costumers.
Behaviour like what? Asking for songs? DJ FunkyBacon is applying for CSM, yet he has asked people to sing on teamspeak, so should he be banned? He even suggested a guy cover a nipple in hot bacon fat, which he did and ended up in hospital. That sounds pretty bad to me. The recording also shows several people who aren;t erotica 1 asking for songs and texts and running the bonus room. Why are they not banned?

Then on the other side, the recording does show sohkar throwing some pretty strong racial abuse about, not even just the odd word, but clearly calculated racial attacks. Why is he not banned?

And there we are with that "majority" thing again. Citation needed on that mate, since it seems like it's mainly the vocal minority and some victims of scams, and since their language in these posts has gone far further into the realms of abuse than Erotica 1 ever has, I'd say they aren't the best example of the community

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2112 - 2014-04-07 12:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Loko Crackhead
IIshira wrote:
The next time someone kills one of my expensive ships I'm going to report them for "Cyber-Bullying"!... I'm still trying to recover from the emotional trauma when those meanies destroyed my Nightmare!


OK, if that's what you understand we're saying, go ahead, knock yourself out.

P.S. TY Ramona for pointing that out. My English failed me Oops.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2113 - 2014-04-07 12:53:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Loko Crackhead wrote:
knock yourself up.


Im not sure this means what you think it means lol

EDIT: Its okay, its not as easy as you think

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2114 - 2014-04-07 13:08:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course it's relevant. The whole point of this decisions is based around how upset the victim is. Of course his point of view is relevant, as is the point of view of Erotica 1. The recording is only 1 part of the situation. Even while that was going on, they were communicating via text based chat, so all you've got is a single point of view. Making a decision purely off that is pretty silly.


You don't get to blow smoke in my eyes and then call me silly. Sorry!

Lucas Kell wrote:
Well there we go, you have no interest in facts, only in your own opinion based off of restricted knowledge. There have been winners... Oh wait, all Erotica 1 alts, right? Set up years ago in preparation for this right?


Not the alts maybe some accomplices or some friends or ..... You really need to try harder.

Lucas Kell wrote:
How? How do you use common sense to determine if some idiot on the internet you've never even met is going to freak out and start screaming? The way the rules are being stated, if you do anything once a player shows distress, you can get banned. You can't preempt the low tolerance bar of some people. This basically leads to a situation where all you have to do is shows signs of distress and everyone has to leave you alone.

And no, most of us avoid bans because CCP don't act on people getting upset over pixels. Up until this situation, they've stated clearly it's not their problem and even made their very own HTFU video. Now they've set a precedent for banning someone for something they've done outside of eve, and not even because the victim was upset, but because one CSM member didn't like it and started a witch hunt. I honestly can't understand how people can see that then use the phrase "common sense".


Sorry if you can't relate to how I use common sense. We might have a serious disconnect here.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Behaviour like what? Asking for songs? DJ FunkyBacon is applying for CSM, yet he has asked people to sing on teamspeak, so should he be banned? He even suggested a guy cover a nipple in hot bacon fat, which he did and ended up in hospital. That sounds pretty bad to me. The recording also shows several people who aren;t erotica 1 asking for songs and texts and running the bonus room. Why are they not banned?

Then on the other side, the recording does show sohkar throwing some pretty strong racial abuse about, not even just the odd word, but clearly calculated racial attacks. Why is he not banned?

And there we are with that "majority" thing again. Citation needed on that mate, since it seems like it's mainly the vocal minority and some victims of scams, and since their language in these posts has gone far further into the realms of abuse than Erotica 1 ever has, I'd say they aren't the best example of the community


Why don't you people, that think Erotica did nothing wrong, start a poll about this? Test the masses, it will give you a more proper tool advocating for her pardon then arguing with oll' opinionated me.
Oh and please stop presenting me **** so I get accustomed and tolerate **** easier.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2115 - 2014-04-07 13:29:26 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Why don't you people, that think Erotica did nothing wrong....


Sorry, have to jump in here

I havent found any person matching that description

Most think they were both wrong

I think they have both been punished already, myself.

But even taken that its wrong,its been going on for a long time

And even taken that its wrong, I dont believe it should be stopped

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2116 - 2014-04-07 13:39:23 UTC
Loko Crackhead wrote:
You don't get to blow smoke in my eyes and then call me silly. Sorry!
lol, you are refusing to accept something that is a fact, which you could easily verify but won't. That's not blowing smoke anywhere. It's not my fault that when making judgement calls you don't feel the need to look beyond a single source. Is now a bad time to tell you that not everything on Wikipedia is actually factual?

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Not the alts maybe some accomplices or some friends or ..... You really need to try harder.
Or... people who were genuinely entertaining and had fun with it. Your bias is noones problem but your own. You're probably someone that got scammed and had a sad and are now back with an alt seeking revenge. Scary.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Sorry if you can't relate to how I use common sense. We might have a serious disconnect here.
Nice question avoidance. The reason you dodged it is because it can't be answered. It's unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to make a call over the internet on a strangers level of tolerance, then call that common sense. The community in EVE come from a range of different cultural backgrounds, even if you ignore language differences. Different people will have different things that get to them and different responses. From my point of view, asking someone to sing a bunch of songs could never be considered harassment. Maybe that's just a cultural difference, but I don't think getting upset over choices the victim made is the perpetrators problem. Now if Erotica 1 had followed the guy around hounding him, that would be different, but at any point he could have just told him to **** off and left.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Why don't you people, that think Erotica did nothing wrong, start a poll about this? Test the masses, it will give you a more proper tool advocating for her pardon then arguing with oll' opinionated me.
Oh and please stop presenting me **** so I get accustomed and tolerate **** easier.
Why? Because who would respond? The vocal minority. That's the whole reason they are considered vocal. Most people couldn't give two ***** about some random guy who asked another random guy to sing. The only reason there such a fuss this time is a CSM with a popular blog got his fanbase to grab pitchforks and go on hate campaign.

And most importantly here, what about the other bonus room runners, sohkar himself and DJ FunkyBacon. Ignoring Erotica 1 for a moment, why are those people NOT banned? Didn't they do things that are just as bad, if not worse in some cases? I dunno about you mate, but I do not tolerate racial attacks, ever, under any circumstances.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2117 - 2014-04-07 13:45:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
He even suggested a guy cover a nipple in hot bacon fat, which he did and ended up in hospital. That sounds pretty bad to me.


Hot bacon fat on nipples?? Ban him now!

Now if it was hot wax Twisted
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2118 - 2014-04-07 14:02:31 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Why don't you people, that think Erotica did nothing wrong....


Sorry, have to jump in here

I havent found any person matching that description

Most think they were both wrong

I think they have both been punished already, myself.

But even taken that its wrong,its been going on for a long time

And even taken that its wrong, I dont believe it should be stopped


You lost me, I swear. Wrong but shouldn't be stopped?Or maybe I lost you. I have no problem with in-game scamming I think it should have in game risks but I don't want this facet of EVE eradicated. I have a problem with guys that can't use common sense to keep it in game that's all. Take note that usually the villains are the active party and the victims are the passive/reactive party. It's up to the active party to set the boundaries and if they set them wrong they'll get the most heat.

I never scammed and was scammed only once with a contract back in the days when I was pulling all-nighters in EVE. I hold no grudge against that guy, not so ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2119 - 2014-04-07 14:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Loko Crackhead wrote:

Wrong but shouldn't be stopped?

Yes.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
I have no problem with in-game scamming I think it should have in game risks but I don't want this facet of EVE eradicated. I have a problem with guys that can't use common sense to keep it in game that's all.

It was ingame as much as the comms of a fleet action are ingame. Or Diplo is ingame.

Loko Crackhead wrote:
Take note that usually the villains are the active party and the victims are the passive/reactive party. It's up to the active party to set the boundaries and if they set them wrong they'll get the most heat.

Villian and victim are subjective terms.

Ive said it many times already;
Both were in the wrong

Both have been punished

I dont know why this subject is still open to debate or interperetation, but for what its worth, a person can find something wrong, but learn to find tolerance.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2120 - 2014-04-07 14:07:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Or... people who were genuinely entertaining and had fun with it. Your bias is noones problem but your own. You're probably someone that got scammed and had a sad and are now back with an alt seeking revenge. Scary.



Damn you figured me out. I guess you win at internetz. Cry
I already answered all your points but I can't repeat myself every time you use different words to say the same thing.

Enjoy EVE!