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Capital Ship Production

Author
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#41 - 2014-04-03 10:01:49 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
[quote=HiddenPorpoise]
While I appreciate that, you'd be effectively handing null-sec the keys to the galaxy.


You cannot use capitals in higsec.


really? I hate to inform you, but there are players who own carriers / dreads in high sec.

as for the content creation due to removing capital production from low sec stations, if you love popping pos's that much you should jump in a time machine and go back to 2005 and enjoy the sov mechanics that were based around whoever could deploy more pos's on the moons in one system.

the production aspect of using low sec stations really shouldn't change, there is already more than enough content in low sec that moving the production to pos's only is not warranted. you have pirate ganking, pirate hunting, improve sec status tags hunting, FW, titans+ moms in low sec getting ganked and mishaps on stations that cause other capitals including jump freighters to get ganked too..... I also forgot to mention about pos's on good moons getting ganked too.

as you can see there is plenty of content / chances of content already in low sec and if you really are having trouble finding content why not go roaming with your corp/alliance in null
Anthar Thebess
#42 - 2014-04-03 10:13:22 UTC
I know, you cannot move more to higsec, if some GM will not put one to you redeeming quene.
You cannot use them in higsec , if this gives you advantage against other players ( so you can just undock ).
You cannot build more in higsec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2014-04-03 11:18:09 UTC
So, you technically agree with me that Sov 00 is pointless for industrials, simply because the bulk of the people are too lazy, too cowardly and too convenience-only driven?

My point is and always will be that, if you have SOV, you are supposed to LIVE in your sovereign space: Make money there, build the things you need there, defend your home there. Not import from elsewhere, not make money elsewhere - only because it is easier. My point is that you have cheap access to minerals in Sov 00 because of the fact that you can set reasonable prices and because you have it right at your doorstep. You don't even need to import from 00 (which is the case in Low sec production), because you have ALL the minerals right next to you.

If that is the case, Sov 00 is pointless in its essence and can be removed. Let's just all have NPC 00 and a lot more Low sec space in this case. Solves a lot of problems and gives finally room for good PVP, more commitment and more death.

Your small POS is RF'd in minutes and you cannot do anything about it, it will be done repeatedly and especially by bigger fish to drive of smaller fish. You don't need to destroy the POS, just continually put it in RF. that interrupts enough and blueballing makes people mad over time.
The advantage of Sov 00 is that you don't need a POS to reprocess, that the cost (while also low in NPC stations) is ZERO in Sov 00 stations, unless you have a bastard as station holder. You don't need to move minerals across huge distances, just from one refinery system to the production system next door. You can do all that under the protection of Cyno Jams. There are so many advantages in Sov 00, that your points about Low sec production cannot compensate.

With your consideration points, you leave out of the picture that people gank more than ever before in High sec under dubious justifications. That you have your massive intel in Sov 00; or should have, because otherwise you are doing it wrong; that you can have defensive fleets ready and guarding the miners (which, after all, is demanded by miners in High sec as well, so why should Sov 00 mining be different?), etc. You can ignore AFK campers because you can react immediately to fleets appearing. You exactly do not lose time hauling because Refineries and Production plants are usually close together, if done right, whereas in Low sec production, you need to haul the ore/minerals from trade hubs to your Low sec.

Just start living in your space, use the full potential of what your space offers you and ignore the rest of EVE, especially High sec as source of cheap labor. You own your empire, so use it - otherwise we don't need this system at all. Also, if you start doing that properly as Sov Holders, demand in High sec for Ore/Minerals will dwindle and people look for new ways to make their money with mining, which should theoretically draw more people to Low sec and 00 Sec (not all, as I have stated repeatedly, but a considerable number will reconsider the possibilities). This can over time also solve the constantly brought up problem of the importance of trade hubs and can change the gameplay quite a lot. But if Sov 00 holders (the, as it seems, drivers for content and gameplay of EVE) continue the way they play now, nothing is going to change and people will continue bicker against their own windmills like dumb pulps of meat.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Anthar Thebess
#44 - 2014-04-03 11:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Well my point is that people will always choose easier way.
As for the lowsec pos refing.
Well the same thing can happen in nullsec.

If there will be no change to the lowsec production slots then remember one thing in case of isk:
Small Pos + some fuel + refining array << 1x T2 mining barge.

I agree that when you live in nullsec you have to use it, but in most of the cases people are using this space. Just not for mining.

Mining in eve is very booring process, so thats why in higsec is done afk.
AFK in nullsec ( exclude most of the boots ) = dead ship.


My point is very simple.
It is cheeper and easier to import basic stuff from higsec.
This is good thing, as whole eve needs this flow to keep runing.

I'm pointing that this refinery change without more actions from CCP will have also impact that CCP or nullsec players desire.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#45 - 2014-04-03 11:55:26 UTC
Only in the current state of rotting things.

And if it is easier, I ask again, where is the point of Sov 00 to begin with? Why have that if people are not willing to take on a slightly harder path? From what it seems in your posts, and I mostly agree with them, we should not remove High sec from the game but make all Sov 00 into NPC 00 or Low sec, since people take the easier path anyways. Limiting cap production in Low sec is in my opinion unlikely to change anything in that regard.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Anthar Thebess
#46 - 2014-04-03 12:42:27 UTC
But eve is not mainly about mining.
You go to nullsec for PVP.

You can fund it from activities:
- ratting ( belt/anomaly)
- do signatures (relic/combat)
- moon mining
- pos reactions
- planetary operations
- trading
- market seeding
- ratting ship farming ( quite nice isk )
- mining
- production

Nullsec is not only about mining and production.
In a system that in any TZ local don drops < 50 people almost no one is mining.

My point is that after those changes CCP will in theory buff mining and production in nullsec, but in practice it will just nerf it more.
As simple as it is - for T1 modules( especially capital one )/ships after this change this will be much more profitable :

Buy minerals in higsec build in higsec/Lowsec => Move it to nullsec
Why?
Because you will be brining product that can have better compression ratio than compressed minerals.
Even if not , you still will not be left with any excessive materials, or additional costs from running production installation, or loosing stuff because nullsec nature.

The bigger item you want to build the more additional minerals you are going to be left with.
Yes you can use it to build something else , but at the same time it is simpler to bring this item from higsec/lowsec rather than move/mine stuff and build it in nullsec.

Remember that CCP nerfed higsec industry lately.
How?
With the changes applied to Battleships.
Now most of the fleets consist from Isthars.
Move isthar hull , and move BS hull.
30 isthars + eq per JF , or 6 Battleships per JF.

So production of BS hulls locally put pressure to have minerals locally.... but we are moving away from main topic.

As for items that can be made in higsec - we cannot have almost any influence, then in case of capital hulls, that require large amounts of minerals we can actually promote local "miners" by forcing players to build it in nullsec.

We can do it only by limiting their production in lowsec.

We can do it in 3 ways :
1. Move it to poses
2. Limit the station types that can be used for this purpose, and at the same time limit the number of production slots
3. Link the ability to build capitals in lowsec - to FW ownership. ( so you can build capitals if your faction is holding station , and at the same time you have to defend this station or your productions will be cancelled and you will loose lot of isk)





Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#47 - 2014-04-03 14:15:40 UTC
no

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Anthar Thebess
#48 - 2014-04-04 06:45:18 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
no


Yes
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#49 - 2014-04-04 09:30:02 UTC
Um, no.

Lowsec needs more activity, not less.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Anthar Thebess
#50 - 2014-04-04 11:37:15 UTC
Umm, yes.

Lowsec needs more activity, not less.

Do you realy want to have nullsec blobs in lowsec?
When more nullsec producers move to low then they will notice lowsec moons, they will just take most valuable - and limit themself to moon mining and production on stations.

The only time you will actually see them is when they will be pumping their pos - with 500 other friends.

I don't think that lowsec needs this kind of worthless activity.

Link Capital production to FW - then you will see actual activity people will be defending their space .
Link Production slot numbers to number of controlled systems - and you will see more of it.
People will not grind and pass systems , but defend them in order to keep production running.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2014-04-04 11:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Not sure about the defending part. If that link to actual FW performance would happen and if Sov 00 bunnies switch over to Low sec for production, the mentioned blobs would just chose 1 FW side and dominate the FW area of said part, effectively prohibiting players of the opposing faction warfare from cap production.

As stated in another thread: Blobs are dumb and predictable and do everything to exploit the game for the maximum possible returns. So this would very likely result in even more power to the blob and in turn less activity in Low sec. Twisted

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Anthar Thebess
#52 - 2014-04-04 11:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Not sure about the defending part. If that link to actual FW performance would happen and if Sov 00 bunnies switch over to Low sec for production, the mentioned blobs would just chose 1 FW side and dominate the FW area of said part, effectively prohibiting players of the opposing faction warfare from cap production. Even more power to the blob. Twisted


There is slight difference : any one can join FW, and any one in this FW can use those lines.
They will not join their main alliance to FW, and one of the corporations cannot be in FW.
Anthar Thebess
#53 - 2014-04-07 07:24:21 UTC
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2014-04-07 08:09:41 UTC
They don't need to join FW, it's Low sec for a reason.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-04-07 09:11:56 UTC
No. Not everyone lives in Null or wants to live in null, so why should a aspect of the game that works be removed for those that use it in their choice of home space.

Anthar Thebess
#56 - 2014-04-07 09:17:33 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
No. Not everyone lives in Null or wants to live in null, so why should a aspect of the game that works be removed for those that use it in their choice of home space.



That is my point exactly to prevent part of nullsec industry to be moved to lowsec station, and even "promote" it to keep it in nullsec.
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-04-08 05:32:21 UTC
Which is not useful. I will be building a carrier at some point and I'd want it being done on a station where I have easy access and not have worry about pos logistics.

The building of capital ships is as much a low sec thing as it is a null sec thing. SuperCaps are whole different kettle of fish they alone should be the domain of null industry
Anthar Thebess
#58 - 2014-04-08 06:36:30 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Which is not useful. I will be building a carrier at some point and I'd want it being done on a station where I have easy access and not have worry about pos logistics.

The building of capital ships is as much a low sec thing as it is a null sec thing. SuperCaps are whole different kettle of fish they alone should be the domain of null industry


We are not talking about you, person that at some point want to build a capital - but about people that will do this on a massive scale.
As for your carrier - it will be cheaper to buy hull.
Because you will be able to save around 100 - 200mil max and if you calculate time needed for you to setup logistics and move stuff will be far more grater than time you need to earn those 200mil
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