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Should eve be more 'Pay to Win?'

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Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#61 - 2014-04-06 22:59:16 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

Being good at EVE, much like most any other thing, takes practice. Period.

No game should be "pay to win." It is lazy, unbalanced, terrible design.

EVE Music
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#62 - 2014-04-06 23:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.
Nobody is denying that you can pile money into Eve to purchase a pretrained character or ships, it's just that doing so normally ends up in hilarious and ignominious explosions, in short it rarely ends well for a purchaser without the experience to leverage those skill points effectively.

Edit ~ TY Mr Epeen for pointing that out

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#63 - 2014-04-06 23:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
For a new player, in my view the idea of "pay to win" in EvE is a fantasy.

It doesn't exist and the opposite is more likely to be true.

"Pay to lose" is what most new players would face if they could access more bling faster.

It takes time to develop the skills to use larger ships, to fit them properly, to have a network of in game friends to fly with and to be able to generate the ISK in game to afford them.

Without the player knowledge and experience, as with many things, a "pay to win" approach would mostly benefit the veterans who would be looting more shitfit blinged ships and taking home the spoils.

New players in bigger ships would stand no better chance of survival (possibly worse) and would just lose more ISK at a faster rate.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#64 - 2014-04-06 23:12:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.
Nobody is denying that you can pile money into Eve to purchase a pretrained character or ships, it's just that doing so normally ends up in hilarious and ignominious explosions, in short it rarely ends well for the purchaser.

By the same token, you can pour money into it for characters and ships knowing full well how to play the game. That normally doesn't end up in any hilarity for anyone. It's not pay-to-win, but it's a good way to pay to jump the queue.

If you pay attention in the Character Bazaar, I think you'll find there is an equal or larger percentage of experienced players buying them than new players.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#65 - 2014-04-06 23:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Good point Mr Epeen, pay2win can indeed swing both ways, I should have specified that it rarely ends well for those without the experience to use those skillpoints effectively. Edited accordingly.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-04-06 23:20:25 UTC
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.


That's not "pay to win", by any, means. We see it multiple times a day on Battleclinic. Blinged-out ship dies in highsec mission... billions of ISK lost because the pilot had more money than brains. Or how about the character-under-new-management? You can easily tell an '03 toon that was sold on EBay, just from their lossmails.

Arguing that there is anything "pay to win" about EVE is just nonsense. SP only gets you so far. When we start seeing microtransations that give you 24 hours of double hit points, boost your damage by 4x, increase all your resistances by 30%, etc, THEN you can call EVE "pay to win". Until then, you're just talking out your poophole.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-04-06 23:26:08 UTC
@OP

Sadly your thoughts on the matter are mostly incorrect.

First, EVE is one of the few MMO's I've ever played where long time vets and new players can effectively play together. Sure not with the same choice of ships but they can effectively complement each other.

Second, EVE is the kind of game that teaches you to "enjoy the now" If you are the type that always looks at what you can't use yet you will be unhappy for your entire EVE career. This is the mentality to impart on your new friends.

Luckily with all of the recent rebalancing, there has been a HUGE resurgence of PVP occurring with the use of T1 frigates and cruisers. Both of which are easily accessible to new players both in terms of skills and isk.

In short no, there isn't a real problem with SP in EVE and the way that it works. A perception problem maybe but not a real one.
Doireen Kaundur
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-04-06 23:31:08 UTC
Should eve be more 'Pay to Win?'


NO Roll

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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-04-06 23:45:11 UTC
The other issue is if the pay to win scenario was setup like everything else most vets would just plex the accelerator immediately becasue a PLEX for an older character is pocket money.

The real issue is the obsession new players have for T3s, battleships, supers and caps. Battleships have very limited usefulness in game (I only ever fly one with my highsec mission alt, in other words rarely). Supers are even more limited, and no sane person aspires to fly a Titan with their main, you will be logging in to stare at empty space for weeks on end.

I suppose you can just sell levels for cash. Say $10 per level per rank. That would cost $10 for level 1 of a rank 1 skill and $250 for level 5 of a rank 5 skill. But seriously what is the point when you can achieve the same result buying a character on the bazaar.
leavemymomalone idiot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-04-06 23:52:52 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Without going into too much detail, it seems like it might be worth seriously considering. Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

I've been playing since 2006'ish and I want to see a new influx of players or a way for newer players to accelerate themselfs to keep interest in the game. I've spent years training skills and it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. All i had to do was auto renew a subscription. What i've DONE in Eve feels like an accomplishment.

Perhaps offering 1 months subscription cost for 1 months worth of skillpoints (based on char stats) into your unassigned pool would be a possible way to ensure that old players got the same number of SP for every penny/cent they spent as a new player does. None of this makes new players better at the game or more financially sound... just gives them access to more ships/bonuses/market-opportunities.

terrible idea minus 1
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2014-04-06 23:57:06 UTC
Chinwe Rhei wrote:
As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.

…and the beauty of how that is being handled in EVE is that it never actually veers into P2W territory: at no point are any mechanics skipped over, obsoleted, ignored, or set aside. What you're paying for isn't any kind of “win” — it's assets already in the game generated through in-game means in the time it takes to go through that generation. It's as much “pay to win” as paying your subscription, because that's all it actually amounts to (albeit with a slightly desynchronised order of events).

If other players are not willing to give you what you want, you will not get it no matter how much you pay. If anything even remotely resembling a “win” was available in the game, you could bet your ass that people wouldn't be selling much of it. Blink
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#72 - 2014-04-07 00:06:29 UTC
NO GAME should EVER be pay to win!

You pay for additional content via a subscription, store or a combination of both.

But there should never be advantages. You're paying to extend and expand your game.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Rykuss
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2014-04-07 00:55:48 UTC
Every time I pay my subscription, which allows me to play internet spaceships, I win.

You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#74 - 2014-04-07 01:16:30 UTC
Rykuss wrote:
Every time I pay my subscription, which allows me to play internet spaceships, I win.


I liek dis :)
Kronenbourg Strasbourg
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-04-07 01:45:44 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool


Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.
And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression P


Lol, thanks... I think Blink
Kronenbourg Strasbourg
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2014-04-07 01:54:33 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool


Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.
And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression P

More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.


That insinuates that someone adds a skill to the training queue and then does nothing until the training is complete? Surely EVE is the classic multi-tasking and multi-learning game?? i.e. while you're waiting for one thing, you do / learn another?

It seems as though the arguments put forwards are summarising a desire to reach some kind of 'end goal' as quickly as possible? I'm sure that even the most senior of players here will tell you that this is a game where you never stop learning, training and finding out new things. Maybe stick to a game where you get through a level, then kill the boss, then complete the game. I'm not sure those 'wins' are possible here Smile
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#77 - 2014-04-07 01:59:10 UTC
If they made EVE F2P they could technically do this as the P2W people would be countered by tons of F2P nooobiez for veterans to beat up on. So everyone would be happy... Except the people who haven't paid
Asia Leigh
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#78 - 2014-04-07 02:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Asia Leigh
meh.. New people trying to Pay to win is usually a very expensive and hilarious loss mail in the making. When it happens I can only hope I'm on the kill mail :p
Apply the damn rules equally >.>
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2014-04-07 02:14:40 UTC
I am tempted to interpret the OP as asking for "Pay to accelerate skill progression to the point I can PLEX instead of subbing and then never pay again". :D
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2014-04-07 02:29:07 UTC
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.

That insinuates that someone adds a skill to the training queue and then does nothing until the training is complete? Surely EVE is the classic multi-tasking and multi-learning game?? i.e. while you're waiting for one thing, you do / learn another?

It seems as though the arguments put forwards are summarising a desire to reach some kind of 'end goal' as quickly as possible?

That's the core problem here, I suspect. The OP assumes that EVE is one of those “progress through content consumption” games, and wish to skip some of that consumption. The one that doesn't exist.

Training skills is not unrewarding gameplay. In fact, it is not gameplay at all. That's what makes it such a vastly superior system: because it completely detaches the drudgery of character progression from the game you play. As a result, you can concentrate on actually playing the game rather than bash your head repeatedly against the “make level go up” button.

His idea might very well have had a place in a game where that kind of grind exists; where you want to get the building stuff over with faster so you can get to the game part of the game. The problem is, of course, that there is no such obstacle in EVE. You get to the game part of the game immediately here, and the fact that progression character building is just a rclick menu is exactly what makes it all possible.