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Should eve be more 'Pay to Win?'

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Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#41 - 2014-04-05 10:12:38 UTC
No

No

Some more; No
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-04-05 22:17:44 UTC
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool


Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Tosawa Komarui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-04-06 07:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tosawa Komarui
Thomas Builder wrote:
While I'm not totally against the idea to pay to "catch up" with characters created at launch:
You can kinda already do that by buying an old character on the bazaar.

And you do overestimate the amount of gain skill points bring. You can get enough skill points in 3 months of focussed training to decently pilot any specific sub-capital ship. While you might get a bit more performance with a couple more lvl 5 skills, that's usually not that important, unless you are fighting someone in the same ship. But in a fight between different ships, the ship strengths are more important than skill points.


this is a lie, there is no heavy assault cruiser you can fly in 3 months at any playable level

please dont feed crap like this into discussions about skill training taking ages (which it very much does for quite a lot of sub capital ships), your not the only one who has said this either.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#44 - 2014-04-06 13:24:48 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool


Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.
And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#45 - 2014-04-06 14:57:59 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Kronenbourg Strasbourg wrote:
I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right Cool


Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.
And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression P


Of course - Eve requires a particular Mind Set to attract people. the ability to accelerate skill training would not change this.

More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.

Eve has a lot of flavour - it can take months to reach an SP break-point to be effective at a lot of these things (e.g. what if you DONT want to PVP in a frig?). In that time I wouldn't blame some people for becoming disenfranchised with the skill system despite the game play.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-04-06 16:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Maeltstome wrote:

Of course - Eve requires a particular Mind Set to attract people. the ability to accelerate skill training would not change this.

More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.

Eve has a lot of flavour - it can take months to reach an SP break-point to be effective at a lot of these things (e.g. what if you DONT want to PVP in a frig?). In that time I wouldn't blame some people for becoming disenfranchised with the skill system despite the game play.


Let me clarify:

A. YOU don't think it's a good system
B. YOU think it's unrewarding, YOU want a XP grind game.
C. YOU think and fail doing it, that it takes months to do something.


Ergo, it's YOUR opinions and YOUR flawed logic.


As for your last point

I want to drive a Formula 1 car...Can I do that now, I don't want to learn how to drive in a normal and other smaller class cars first. Same idea, same result...start small and work your way up.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#47 - 2014-04-06 16:43:18 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:


Wait...whut?


You have obviously no idea what you are talking about.

I've seen less then 2 month olds get kills (or made kills possible) as good as veterans do.

This. So much this. A guy in my alliance who I take out on roams and flies with a few others is top of the Killboards this month. He's about 2 months in...

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
Logan Dufrais
H.E.L.P.e.R
#48 - 2014-04-06 19:47:45 UTC
The other thing to consider here is how broken this would be for experienced players' alts. Someone who knows a lot about making isk in the game could level a sidekick account super efficiently to make a ton of isk for not a lot of work. It's the same concept that prevents players from training industrial ships on a trial account, for example. I also think that pay to win is a slippery slope that leads to player laziness, especially in a player driven economy like eve that is based on hard work.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-04-06 20:31:15 UTC
Logan Dufrais wrote:
The other thing to consider here is how broken this would be for experienced players' alts. Someone who knows a lot about making isk in the game could level a sidekick account super efficiently to make a ton of isk for not a lot of work. It's the same concept that prevents players from training industrial ships on a trial account, for example. I also think that pay to win is a slippery slope that leads to player laziness, especially in a player driven economy like eve that is based on hard work.


Ergo...Malcanis' Law

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
ginger jon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-04-06 20:52:19 UTC
no, i don't think they should make things easier for new players, it would be a kick in the teeth for veterans.

in most online games noobs get their bums handed to them on a plate, this is the nature of the beast when it comes to online gaming..

i used to play an old flight sim called air attack, i put 10 years or more into it and got to be really good at it, if some guy who had been playing for 6 months was suddenly given upgrades for his plane to be able to compete with me id have felt robbed.

the good thing about eve though is that noobs are catered for very well unlike most other games i can think of.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#51 - 2014-04-06 21:11:40 UTC
This thread has been moved to General Discussion, as it is not a discussion that is at place in EvE New Citizens Q&A.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2014-04-06 21:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Maeltstome wrote:
I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?
No. Largely because the problem you've invented there doesn't actually exist. There is no gulf that can't already trivially be closed by new players, nor is there any mechanic to do so that won't be abused to hell or back by old players. Your problem is that you're operating on a completely erroneous SP = XP assumption, as well as a ”more = better” assumption that many obsolete class/level-based RPG systems employ. EVE does not use such a system and does not suffer from the problems that are inherent with them. What you're suggesting, however, creates many of those problems — that's not a good thing.

Maeltstome wrote:
I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:

Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful.
No, that's not why your idea isn't game-breaking (which it is); what they're describing is the reason why your idea is unnecessary and ill-informed. It doesn't solve anything and it only allows people who have the experience to bypass all the mechanics put into place to ensure that even they will be limited in what they can do at any given time.

Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.
The gap is actually pretty small and not only easy to seal, but unavoidable. The reasons you list are part of what makes it so. You're missing out the really important bit, though: the (massively) diminishing returns that make it hard to become better in any relevant way in any given area, but easy to become good enough in a large number of them at once.

Being able to speed up SP accumulation will remove all of those balancing mechanics and give older players such vast and immediate advantages over new ones that it borders on farcical.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#53 - 2014-04-06 21:37:02 UTC
No.

Do you have any more questions?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-04-06 21:42:05 UTC
why would you even ask this question? are you a noob?

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-04-06 22:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Maeltstome wrote:


Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?



Nope.

CCP has changed it's Character Generation system at least a half dozen times over the years, offered the ability to accelerate training with specific implants for new pilots and even streamlined the skills requirements through various iterations of "rebalancing".

All too often, however, the moans and groans from the unwashed masses are rooted in impatience.

Folks like that will always find a game that allows them INSTANT GRATIFICATION with all kinds of "golden bullets", cheat codes and "God Modes"... so they should start heading for the "EXIT" sign now instead of suggesting and, in some cases, INSISTING that EVE isn't fair and needs to change.

Which is to say, Bullshit.

Pirate

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#56 - 2014-04-06 22:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Maeltstome wrote:


Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?



What's the point, really?

No one would not do it. The separation between newb and vet would stay the same and people would continue crying anyway. Total waste of Dev resources, in my opinion.

While I'd still disagree with it, making an argument for accelerated training for new players only would have some merit at least.

Mr Epeen Cool
Boomtown Jones
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-04-06 22:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomtown Jones
Despite all the vitriol in this thread, as others have pointed out it is quite possible to buy SP right now via plex and the character bazaar. P2W by anyone's standards.

I'm not saying that SP boosting for cash should be a thing, but I am saying that unless the character bazaar is removed there is little justification for its continued exclusion.

All SP really does is open up options for gameplay anyway. It only serves as a measure of a players skill because it tells you how long they have been playing, and there are other ways to find that out, but CCP would also have to get quite creative to make such a system fit, as premium time or double plex accounts or other silly ideas would be terribly immersion breaking.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-04-06 22:41:46 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?



NO.

EVE is not "instant gratification". EVE is not a game where everyone's playing field is level. Life is not fair, EVE is not fair.

HTFU.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Chinwe Rhei
Syn Interstellar
#59 - 2014-04-06 22:47:21 UTC
As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-04-06 22:54:08 UTC
As aid above many times, tell your friends to go buy a skilled up character and plex some ships.

With enough real cash you can be logging a character that can fly caps and supers with a hanger full of blinged up ships in less than a week.



NOTE: Despite many people thinking EVE is actually a game called "my SP is bigger than yours" it is the real life players knowledge of the game as a whole and personal contacts they have built up with other players that actually lead to "win" not total SP accumulated.