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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2014-02-25 04:11:53 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
We all know it, the Nestor without a covops cloak is as useful as a chocolate teapot and as desirable as your mother in law after six glasses of sherry.

The dev argument against it getting the covops cloak is that it will be "too powerful", but the dev team is unable to come up with reasoned arguments or empirical experimental results to support this view.

This thread seeks to persuade the dev team, through gentle pressure from the player base, to deliver the Nestor as it should have been born.

Give the Nestor convops cloak ability and the ability to warp cloaked. No more, no less. 30 seconds before reactivation of the cloak is reasonable.

Please like if you agree.

If you do not agree, please provide reasoned argument backed with experimental data.



Most of the posts I have seen against the Nestor having a covops cloak come from known nullsecers.

I wonder what they are afraid of. Are they afraid of the Nestor? They should be happy if someone comes at them with such an expensive ship, the death of which, would boost their killoard stats!

(unless they are.... carebears)


The nullsec guys are concerned that they wont be able to blap people in these things


Nullsec guy here.

I've been sceaming for a real cloak and jump drive since the intro thread.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2014-02-25 07:36:29 UTC
Why would it matter if the Nestor were out of line with Blops battleships? They themselves have a specific function - that of bridging in recons and bombers. I see no comparison.

There are many powerful ships that can currently enter a system and choose never to leave and maneuver while cloaked. I am keen to understand why the Nestor being a battleship hull is relevant to an argument against it being able to do the same.

In terms of power projection I don't see the Nestor as any more powerful and dangerous than a cloaked T3.

Is there something about battleships, with their slow lock times and lack of maneuverability that I am missing?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#203 - 2014-02-25 08:01:00 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.





TBH, if it has to be changed, I think it should have the same bonuses regarding cloaking as the current black ops, and both the nestor and the blops ships be able to use prop mods (or at least afterburners) while cloaked. Would satisfy the apparent need to put the nestor in line with the others, and would give a needed buff to the blops without making them OP.


My line of thinking is that if people want to field that much damn isk in a fight, they can probably find a way to win one way or another.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-02-25 08:13:59 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.





TBH, if it has to be changed, I think it should have the same bonuses regarding cloaking as the current black ops, and both the nestor and the blops ships be able to use prop mods (or at least afterburners) while cloaked. Would satisfy the apparent need to put the nestor in line with the others, and would give a needed buff to the blops without making them OP.


My line of thinking is that if people want to field that much damn isk in a fight, they can probably find a way to win one way or another.


This seemingly innocuous comment does actually highlight a serious flaw with the Nestor. No-one as yet has managed to come up with a doctrine to win a fight with one. There are enough rich players out there (me included) who would happily commit the money even for a small edge at the current price. Money really is no object to some. And yet the Nestor remains unused in combat.

This is because in reality there is no compelling combat doctrine that favours it. This will not change when the price drops. It will remain an unused cheaper pirate ship.

RR works on carriers, in small squads running sleepers and between logistics cruisers. It's not effective anywhere else.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Meyer Lanskyy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-02-25 09:09:14 UTC
I am pretty new to the game and haven't read all the posts here. But some I read said BS have to much DPS to have a covert ops cloak.


Don't T3 ships cloak and do a lot of DPS too?? It seems like that is what everyone is flying there days too. Maybe t3s are overpowered?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#206 - 2014-03-12 23:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Meyer Lanskyy wrote:
I am pretty new to the game and haven't read all the posts here. But some I read said BS have to much DPS to have a covert ops cloak.


Don't T3 ships cloak and do a lot of DPS too?? It seems like that is what everyone is flying there days too. Maybe t3s are overpowered?

That has been pretty much dealt with over thousands of words explaining it, but it is all so long it is very easy to get lost.
In short it boils down to the fact that a battleship with targeting delays, is the least powerful implementation of a covert ops cloak. The worry boils down to some having a reflex Reaction and assuming that a bigger ship plus covert cloak = OMG bigger power! and not thinking beyond that point, an over simplistic argument and just plain wrong.

The real power is with small ships that can surprise their target. This simply does not apply to a battleship. They can warp away before a shot is fired. And if the worry is with assigning drones to smaller cloaky ships, then the small ships are already in combat with you and the battleship arriving cloaked is irrelevant. You know you are being attacked already.

So tl;dr battleship with warping cloaked is no worse than battleship arriving uncloaked.

The only advantage is that it enables the use in wormhole space as warping across a system visible on dscan will result in the destruction of the fleet that travels with it. So currently it is fatally flawed in wormhole space.
If you are interested in reading more there is a more detailed post on the previous page.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#207 - 2014-03-13 00:03:21 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why would it matter if the Nestor were out of line with Blops battleships? They themselves have a specific function - that of bridging in recons and bombers. I see no comparison.

There are many powerful ships that can currently enter a system and choose never to leave and maneuver while cloaked. I am keen to understand why the Nestor being a battleship hull is relevant to an argument against it being able to do the same.

In terms of power projection I don't see the Nestor as any more powerful and dangerous than a cloaked T3.

Is there something about battleships, with their slow lock times and lack of maneuverability that I am missing?



Mostly in regards to your OP, to provide a reasoned argument as to why not a Cov-ops cloak. The current situation is what is defining balanced, so going beyond that is OP. If they want to change the balance, that's fine. If you have an argument for why the balance should be changed, the ball is in your court. Near as I can tell the strongest Pro-cloak argument is because it does not hurt anything... which I will believe when it's been playtested by the mouth breathing baby eaters of EVE and they can't find a way to bend someone over with it in a new and hideous fashion.

I actually agree. The problem is with cloaking, not the cov-ops ability. I don't see a problem upgrading the cov-ops to put them in line with what a T2 battleship should be, nor the problem with making the Nestor a Pirate Cov-ops to match the rest of it's line.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#208 - 2014-03-13 00:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaking itself is broken because of it's lack of counter and complete effectiveness. I personally believe all cloaks should be like the Cov-ops cloaks, and the ability to run prop mods or anything else you want while cloaked. That comes with the idea that you could actually hunt cloaked ships though, running other stuff would make the ship easier to find, and that cloaks themselves would be so cap intensive that the ship would have to be gimped with cap mods to be able to perma run it. All of that is beyond the scope of this thread.


The ability to use a cov-ops cloak on a Battleship to evade camps at gates would be much reduced compared to other ships with that ability, but the fact remains that if it did it would be forever concealed within that system until it was destroyed or it decided to leave, with no reason for it to ever drop cloak until the moment it attacked. This is still a stronger use than any other battleship can make of a cloak, and no evidence has been shown, or argument made that changes where the balance point of cloaking should be in regards to battleships. Unless you are willing to cut the ship in half and significantly reduce it's fittings, then it would be massively out of line in comparison to other cloaking battleships--as evidenced by the devs reluctance to change cloaking in any way for the past several years.



Ok full rebuttal is here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4273855#post4273855
So many posts, things get missed.

Basically the tl;dr is that in null the power of a covert ops cloak on a battleship is far far weaker than on a frigate or cruiser.
You have local, you should certainly know it has arrived if anyone in your corp used d scan or monitors entry points.
Warping cloaked or uncloaked across your system adds nothing over a normal cloak in null, it is still hidden when it reapplies cloak. And when it attacks, unless people are completely asleep they have a mass of time to warp off before it can even target them. And if you are being attacked with a mixed fleet of cloaked ships,you are scrammed and webbed and well aware you are being attacked, long before the nestor arrives to the battle timers cleared and ready to fight, the small ships are the ships that benefit from the covert cloak, not a battleship.

Tl;dr a battleship is the least powerful implementation of a covert ops cloak as long as it has a targeting activation delay after decloaking.
In wormhole space it is an enabler, enabling its use https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4270286#post4270286 , not to make it stronger or more powerful, in null it adds nothing of any note. So balance is not affected.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#209 - 2014-03-13 00:57:39 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tl;dr a battleship is the least powerful implementation of a covert ops cloak as long as it has a targeting activation delay after decloaking.

Agreed. Looks like we're relegated to a logistics platform, though. One has to wonder what's driving this behind the scenes, because it certainly isn't demand from your average player...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#210 - 2014-03-13 23:00:31 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tl;dr a battleship is the least powerful implementation of a covert ops cloak as long as it has a targeting activation delay after decloaking.

Agreed. Looks like we're relegated to a logistics platform, though. One has to wonder what's driving this behind the scenes, because it certainly isn't demand from your average player...


Agreed, but if it can have the warping cloaked issue fixed, I can see a role for it in wormholes, not an overwhelming need, but still useful enough for it to be used. It would be a start, which is more than it has at the moment. Here's hoping.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2014-04-06 09:55:36 UTC
I have let some time pass since posting in this thread in order to allow the results of the Nestor changes and new sentient drone drops to make themselves felt.

The result of these changes seems to be that the Nestor is no more desirable than it was. I certainly don't want one in its current form, and neither seemingly does the market.

I think it's time that the Dev team give serious credence to this proposal.

Rise, please take a moment of your time to model the implications of a covert cloaked Nestor. I think those of us in w-space understand very well how good and balanced it will be.

Perhaps there is some merit in working through (carefully and in a reasoned way) the implications for 0-sec, which seems to be from where I have heard the only objections.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#212 - 2014-04-06 12:47:17 UTC
I do not see how making it cheaper will make it a better value. It'd just be a less expensive hodge podge without a true use or purpose.

As pointed out previously, if I wanted good logistics, I could go with a logistics cruiser at 1/5th the price and gain better maneuverability to boot. Better RR range, too. Drone boat? Dominix. I could organize and equip a small, effective, covops capable exploration gang for less than the cost of a Nestor.

I truly believe the covops cloak is essential to have the Nestor make sense in exploration. Jump capable? Maybe, but it doesn't trip my trigger like the cloak.

Cut the turret slots to 4, maybe even less and have it have to rely on drones more than lasers. With a covops cloak, I can easily see this operating with a pair of Stratios' as their stand-off support ship. As part of that role, kick down the ehp to battlecruiser or even cruiser levels as the covops cloak is essentially a metjod of tanking the ship, too.

My ideal Nestor would probably have the highs occupied by a probe launcher, a pair of t2 salvagers, covops cloak, a pair of large remote armor repairers and a pair of drone link augmentors. The mids would be exploration, drone and ecm modules and the lows armor hardeners, drone damae and maybe even cargo expanders since itd likely be the one toting the loot.

As such, I'd like to see meaningful RR, exploration and maybe drone bonuses (if the latter were too big then we'd definitely get into the realm over overpoweredness, therefore if there were no drone bonuses, I'd be OK with that).

Another way to look at it, is CCP can make the Nestor to exploration what the Exhumers are to mining...with covops, of course.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#213 - 2014-04-06 14:51:58 UTC
Well, the BLOPS balance hasnt happened yet. Hopefully it will soon, and that will give us a better baseline from which to argue changes to the Nestor.

The ship isnt bad. Before AI started eating drones I would have bought one even at its current price, though I feel it is way, way too high. But I just run high sec missions with friends and family. A ship capable of both decent damage outlay and logistic fleet support would be perfect for me. I may yet pick one up, or go check out the Sisters missions in high sec and just get one of my own. Might be a fun family project to get everyone a Sister's ship.

For wormholes the case for a cov-ops cloak has been made. But just as no cloak at all is needed for high sec mission runners, Wormholes are just one area of space. WH dwellers have adapted to life with just the current cov ops ships available, they dont need a cov ops Nestor, it would just be real nice and fill a new niche, and the hull just wont get used much.

I think the main issue is the function of cloaks overall, and with BLOPS balance on the horizon this will get some attention and either cloaking mechanics get adjusted or the severe penalties that have been currently deemed needed and the reasoning for disallowing cov-ops cloaks on battleships will be revisited and adjusted.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#214 - 2014-04-06 15:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I think it's time that the Dev team give serious credence to this proposal.

I couldn't agree more.

Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
Cut the turret slots to 4, maybe even less and have it have to rely on drones more than lasers. With a covops cloak, I can easily see this operating with a pair of Stratios' as their stand-off support ship. As part of that role, kick down the ehp to battlecruiser or even cruiser levels as the covops cloak is essentially a metjod of tanking the ship, too.

The EHP is fine because it's seriously hampered by a lack of low-slots as it is. The passive drone modules planned for the Summer expansion isn't going to help this, either. In addition to the Covert Ops cloak it would be nice to see the Nestor receive a bump in both speed (second to Machariel) and agility (should have the fastest align time).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2014-04-06 16:33:44 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
(a) Well, the BLOPS balance hasnt happened yet. Hopefully it will soon, and that will give us a better baseline from which to argue changes to the Nestor.

The ship isnt bad. Before AI started eating drones I would have bought one even at its current price, though I feel it is way, way too high. But I just run high sec missions with friends and family. A ship capable of both decent damage outlay and logistic fleet support would be perfect for me. I may yet pick one up, or go check out the Sisters missions in high sec and just get one of my own. Might be a fun family project to get everyone a Sister's ship.

b) For wormholes the case for a cov-ops cloak has been made. But just as no cloak at all is needed for high sec mission runners, Wormholes are just one area of space. WH dwellers have adapted to life with just the current cov ops ships available, (b1)they dont need a cov ops Nestor, (b2)it would just be real nice and fill a new niche, (b3)and the hull just wont get used much.

c) I think the main issue is the function of cloaks overall, and with BLOPS balance on the horizon this will get some attention and either cloaking mechanics get adjusted or the severe penalties that have been currently deemed needed and the reasoning for disallowing cov-ops cloaks on battleships will be revisited and adjusted.


a) I don't see any connection between a cov-ops Nestor and Blops, in the same way that I see no connection between the stratios and a recon ship. It does not seem to me that this is the correct basis for a design.

b) With respect, I don't think any ship is designed with hisec mission running in mind (with the exception of the original iterations of the marauders). Even they are now designed around use in hostile space.

b1) no, we don't *need* T3s or HACs either, but we use them because they're useful.
b2) which logically means that it is likely to see some use
b3) this is an unfounded assertion.

c) Are you able to explain what you think is wrong with cloaking? It seems to me to work fairly well. It provides a very good intel advantage (in w-space where there is no local to give you away) but has some serious drawbacks such as the targeting delay. It's also no use to you in a slow ship having just jumped through a wormhole into a camp.

Just to re-iterate, this thread is asking for the covert ops cloak to work on a Nestor as it does on a stratios. There is no mention or request at all for black-ops functions such as bridging.

It might be worth me pointing out that the lore states that the Nestor was designed specifically for w-space. I assert therefore that it should at least fulfill a reasonable role in w-space.

That role will never be scanning and it will never be hacking ghost sites.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
shadow-storm
CONCORED INTERSTELLAR AFFAIRS
#216 - 2014-04-06 16:40:04 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
We all know it, the Nestor without a covops cloak is as useful as a chocolate teapot and as desirable as your mother in law after six glasses of sherry.

The dev argument against it getting the covops cloak is that it will be "too powerful", but the dev team is unable to come up with reasoned arguments or empirical experimental results to support this view.

This thread seeks to persuade the dev team, through gentle pressure from the player base, to deliver the Nestor as it should have been born.

Give the Nestor convops cloak ability and the ability to warp cloaked. No more, no less. 30 seconds before reactivation of the cloak is reasonable.

Please like if you agree.

If you do not agree, please provide reasoned argument backed with experimental data.



Most of the posts I have seen against the Nestor having a covops cloak come from known nullsecers.

I wonder what they are afraid of. Are they afraid of the Nestor? They should be happy if someone comes at them with such an expensive ship, the death of which, would boost their killoard stats!

(unless they are.... carebears)


Well i think the null secs are afraid of massive hotdrops and bare in mind that covops cynos can be light inside a mobile cyno prohibotor...also titan bridges will be a thing of the past..not to mention sale drop on titans
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#217 - 2014-04-06 17:11:57 UTC
shadow-storm wrote:
Well i think the null secs are afraid of massive hotdrops and bare in mind that covops cynos can be light inside a mobile cyno prohibotor...also titan bridges will be a thing of the past..not to mention sale drop on titans

Null-sec is not the sole driving force for the Nestor, and even with a Covert Ops cloak it still wouldn't be - simply due to the associated price. I don't see fleets of these roaming around in low-sec for that matter, either; again, they're just too expensive. A Covert Ops is borderline useless in high-sec for the most part as well - you're not going to see mission runners lining up for these as there are simply cheaper and more effective alternatives.

Which basically leaves wormholes space - probably the only region that can effectively utilize a Covert Ops-equipped Nestor and won't balk at the price.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chaotix Morwen
Church Of BDSM
#218 - 2014-04-08 17:06:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why would it matter if the Nestor were out of line with Blops battleships? They themselves have a specific function - that of bridging in recons and bombers. I see no comparison.

There are many powerful ships that can currently enter a system and choose never to leave and maneuver while cloaked. I am keen to understand why the Nestor being a battleship hull is relevant to an argument against it being able to do the same.

In terms of power projection I don't see the Nestor as any more powerful and dangerous than a cloaked T3.

Is there something about battleships, with their slow lock times and lack of maneuverability that I am missing?


A Nestor is easily vastly more deadly than any cloaky T3. A T3 has rather limited DPS when it uses the cloaking subsystem, in fact only the Proteus is able to keep a relatively high DPS...and youve got to keep in mind it has to be right at the opponent to apply this DPS. A Nestor can pull heavy DPS whilst at a fair range from an opponent, just did a quick eft fit and i managed to get 863 DPS applied at 20+ km, with 153k EHP. I am unable to get a T3(at the same cost a the nestor) to get equivalent stats, so i believe consistently comparing a CovOps Nestor with any CovOpsT3 to be very inaccurate. (Additionally i compensated for the slow lock time with a few SeBo's in the ample mid slots of the Nestor).

Even if it was the case that a Nestor and T3 would achieve equivalent stats, would that be balanced? A T3 takes far more SP to use, let alone use effectively.

You seem to be missing a lot about battleships, yes they have the drawback of slow lock times and maneuverability...and they have this drawback due to the fact that their advantages need an offset. They have the highest DPS and tanking ability of all subcap hulls, its true you can outdps or outtank them, but both at the same time...gl. A CovOps cloak would instantly remove one of the disadvantages of a battleship...its maneuverability, have you tried flying a battleship through lowsec? Your only vulnerable at 1 point during travel, on gates, warping to the next gate. A CovOps eliminates the majority of the danger in this case, as nobody landing on gate will even know your there, and the majority of gate camps will be easliy avoidable by simply using the mwd+cloak trick either to get to warp safely or in the case that the campers think of that, by simply moving in a random direction then warping off.

Additionally why should a heavy dps and tanky battleship be able to use a covops cloak to pick and choose its engagements? Every other hull makes a tradeoff to use covops cloak, either in the form of dps or tank where as the Nestor is just a beefy monster. Now if the Nestor did make a significant tradeoff in order to use CovOps then there wouldnt be so many negative comments on the idea, but it would have to be severely cut down to the point that it will be considered useless...as it is now. The ship needs a different ability to truly be viable, a great example of which is the covert jump drive that many other people have recommended, essentially a blops jump drive but without the ability to create bridges, which would match the sisters lore and give the ship a unique niche it can use.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2014-04-08 17:39:00 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Why would it matter if the Nestor were out of line with Blops battleships? They themselves have a specific function - that of bridging in recons and bombers. I see no comparison.

There are many powerful ships that can currently enter a system and choose never to leave and maneuver while cloaked. I am keen to understand why the Nestor being a battleship hull is relevant to an argument against it being able to do the same.

In terms of power projection I don't see the Nestor as any more powerful and dangerous than a cloaked T3.

Is there something about battleships, with their slow lock times and lack of maneuverability that I am missing?


(a) A Nestor is easily vastly more deadly than any cloaky T3. (b)A T3 has rather limited DPS when it uses the cloaking subsystem, in fact only the Proteus is able to keep a relatively high DPS...and youve got to keep in mind it has to be right at the opponent to apply this DPS. (c) A Nestor can pull heavy DPS whilst at a fair range from an opponent, just did a quick eft fit and i managed to get 863 DPS applied at 20+ km, with 153k EHP. (b)I am unable to get a T3(at the same cost a the nestor) to get equivalent stats, so i believe consistently comparing a CovOps Nestor with any CovOpsT3 to be very inaccurate. (Additionally i compensated for the slow lock time with a few SeBo's in the ample mid slots of the Nestor).

Even if it was the case that a Nestor and T3 would achieve equivalent stats, would that be balanced? (f) A T3 takes far more SP to use, let alone use effectively.

You seem to be missing a lot about battleships, yes they have the drawback of slow lock times and maneuverability...and they have this drawback due to the fact that their advantages need an offset. They have the highest DPS and tanking ability of all subcap hulls, its true you can outdps or outtank them, but both at the same time...gl. (d) A CovOps cloak would instantly remove one of the disadvantages of a battleship...its maneuverability, have you tried flying a battleship through lowsec? Your only vulnerable at 1 point during travel, on gates, warping to the next gate. (d) A CovOps eliminates the majority of the danger in this case, as nobody landing on gate will even know your there, and the majority of gate camps will be easliy avoidable by simply using the mwd+cloak trick either to get to warp safely or in the case that the campers think of that, by simply moving in a random direction then warping off.

(f) Additionally why should a heavy dps and tanky battleship be able to use a covops cloak to pick and choose its engagements? Every other hull makes a tradeoff to use covops cloak, either in the form of dps or tank where as the Nestor is just a beefy monster. Now if the Nestor did make a significant tradeoff in order to use CovOps then there wouldnt be so many negative comments on the idea, but it would have to be severely cut down to the point that it will be considered useless...as it is now. (g)The ship needs a different ability to truly be viable, a great example of which is the covert jump drive that many other people have recommended, essentially a blops jump drive but without the ability to create bridges, which would match the sisters lore and give the ship a unique niche it can use.


There are many points here. I have annotated your quote and will respond to each as best I can.

(a) This is an assumption, since we don't yet have a cloaky Nestor to compare. Even if it were so, I thank that's ok since the nestor hull is approximately 4 times the cost of a fully fitted (and rigged) T3.

(b) both the cloaky proteus and cloaky tengu have very high dps delivered through *medium weapons*, with the ability to overheat for an extended period. I take issue with the assertion that the Nestor in current form is more deadly. Given T3 resists, sig radius and mobility I argue that a T3 of similar cost to a nestor will outperform it at the specific functions of surviving and delivering damage.

(c) Such an opponent would simply warp away. The nestor is slow and unable to engage a single target at disruptor range effectively. If is uses a scram, then any range advantage evaporates since scrams only operate at close range. A cloaky rail proteus or HAM tengu will deliver very high dps at the ranges you have mentioned. I therefore do not believe your argument holds.

(d) Remember that a T3 can fit an interdiction nullifier subsystem. Not only is it smaller, faster, faster into warp, faster in warp, more manoeuvrable, it's also immune to bubbles, interdictors and heavy interdictors. I take issue with the survivability of a covops nestor on a gate camp or wormhole camp. I foresee it dying regularly due to being uncloaked and scrambled by an interceptor as happens now even with recon ships and scouts.

(e) This is untrue. To use a nestor effectively, one must train through two racial battleship skills plus almost completely through drone skills. To use a T3 effectively, it's 1 racial cruiser, 1 medium weapon system and then 1 month of the T3 skill itself. Note that I am disregarding support skills that are common to both types of ship.

(f) Because in an ideal world one gets what one pays for. We could ask the same question about the bhaalgorn. Why should it be able to web to 20km and empty a ship's capacitor instantly? Well, because it's designed to, that's why. And the cost reflects the value of this unique ability.

(g) This puts it squarely in competition with BLOPS, about which the devs are adamant that they do not want. Neither do I since the nestor is designed for w-space (see narrative) where BLOPS has no function.

There is nothing presented here that has not been discounted before. I have yet to see a good argument that covops cloaking would give the nestor power beyond its price tag.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#220 - 2014-04-08 19:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucine Delacourt
Fairly well reasoned arguments on both sides. My issue is with the cloaky t3 argument as to why a Nestor would not be op with a cloak. As is a Nestor can do 1200 DPS @ 23km + 10km in a potential cloak fit. A Proteus would not have anywhere near that DPS or range in a cloaky fit. That said I am not taking sides, merely pointing out the flaw in a particular argument.



Edit: To Clarify, 1200 DPS at 23km + 10km on a cloak BS might very well be acceptable considering the price and downsides of the ship required. I just wanted to point out that the cloaky proteus comp is a terrible one and the DPS figures are not close.