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So, CSM 8 Members....

First post
Author
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-04-05 22:31:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
James Arget wrote:
During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable.

James, this is such garbage. A chimera already CAN do this in a Pulsar. Easily.
If that's the benchmark youre using for this, you need to re evaluate.

Also, why is this an issue? Triage carriers have been getting worse and worse for years now with the buff to dreads and BSs and all subcaps, I don't see any issue at all with making them a bit better.
Used to be a triage carrier could stand against multiple dreads but now they can barely tank 1.

If you want to look at tank issues, go try break a dozen archons in a C6 cata. yeah, it aint gonna happen.
I don't see why that isnt an issue but a better triage chimera is.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Bob Artis
Rolled Out
#42 - 2014-04-05 22:40:12 UTC
If it's only capital ships we are worried about wouldn't it be easier to just reduce the effect wormhole environments have on capital class ships? Like a flat 50% reduction, so C6 Pulsars would give a Chimera -25% instead of -50% bonus to cap recharge time.
Cpt Swagg
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-04-05 22:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Swagg
So let me get this straight..

I've been scanning and traveling A LOOOT (hundreds of system) in the last couple days, yet I see little to no activity unless highsec.

Yet you (CCP) want to kill it even further by making it less safe so even less people will be there??

Sounds logic CCP.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#44 - 2014-04-05 23:10:04 UTC
James Arget wrote:
So, I just got CCP Fozzie on the line to make sure that yes, I was correct in what was being discussed in the minutes.

So, I'll take this from thbonused in order to avoid confusion. From ye olden days of command links, some shield links have had exclusions. The shield links which reduce cap use and cycle time exclude capital local shield boosters. These are the only modules that the average capsuleer would expect to receive their benefit, but do not.

With Odyssey 1.1, Fozzie looked at all the command links as well as command ships, to balance and improve them and all that good stuff. He planned to remove the exclusion that capital shield boosters received, making all shield links affect all shield reps and boosters. With great vigor and haste, I made Fozzie aware that such a change would be extremely powerful in Pulsar effect wormholes due to the bonuses that are given. Fozzie agreed, and the exclusion was kept in place, but he still wants to lift that exclusion in the future.

That's what's being discussed here, although I can already hear Fozzie saying "on a long enough time scale everything in game will be rebalanced." We're not out to nerf your home, we're looking at how to make game-wide improvements.

I guess that's the point. Why do capital reps need the exclusion lifted. Archon Slowcats everywhere, except in Pulsars, are nearly impossible to deal with beyond a certain scale/number. Same with Chimera Slowcats, except in Cataclysmics, are almost as tough when sufficient numbers are fielded. How is buffing capital reps going to benefit capital class warfare anywhere in New Eden, to say nothing of the capital warfare that takes place in mass limited and bonused systems? I don't think it will tbqh.

It smacks of change for the sake of change without a clearly defined reason being stated as to why the change is felt to be necessary (which seems to happen quite often - see invisible k162 signatures for reference).

I'm right behind you

James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#45 - 2014-04-05 23:25:23 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
James Arget wrote:
During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable.

James, this is such garbage. A chimera already CAN do this in a Pulsar. Easily.
If that's the benchmark youre using for this, you need to re evaluate.

Also, why is this an issue? Triage carriers have been getting worse and worse for years now with the buff to dreads and BSs and all subcaps, I don't see any issue at all with making them a bit better.
Used to be a triage carrier could stand against multiple dreads but now they can barely tank 1.

If you want to look at tank issues, go try break a dozen archons in a C6 cata. yeah, it aint gonna happen.
I don't see why that isnt an issue but a better triage chimera is.

Yeah, I went back to the internal thread on it, and this is what I wrote when it was being hashed out.
"Edit: You're looking at Pulsar Chimeras and Wolf-Rayet Archons being around on par for tank ability with boosts and effects within the same price range... but the Chimera will have over 400 gj/s of spare capacitor. You can look at a ton of different fits, but it comes down to similar tanking per cost with it being massively more difficult to neut down a pulsar, which is the only way many gangs can kill them. Add this in and they can be fit for even more recharge, or to local tank through a talisman bhaalgorn and two moros at the same time, cap stable."

So you're absolutely correct, lifting the exclusion wouldn't be bhaalgorn+moros, it'd be talisman bhaalgorn+2 moros.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-04-05 23:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
James Arget wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
James Arget wrote:
During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable.

James, this is such garbage. A chimera already CAN do this in a Pulsar. Easily.
If that's the benchmark youre using for this, you need to re evaluate.

Also, why is this an issue? Triage carriers have been getting worse and worse for years now with the buff to dreads and BSs and all subcaps, I don't see any issue at all with making them a bit better.
Used to be a triage carrier could stand against multiple dreads but now they can barely tank 1.

If you want to look at tank issues, go try break a dozen archons in a C6 cata. yeah, it aint gonna happen.
I don't see why that isnt an issue but a better triage chimera is.

Yeah, I went back to the internal thread on it, and this is what I wrote when it was being hashed out.
"Edit: You're looking at Pulsar Chimeras and Wolf-Rayet Archons being around on par for tank ability with boosts and effects within the same price range... but the Chimera will have over 400 gj/s of spare capacitor. You can look at a ton of different fits, but it comes down to similar tanking per cost with it being massively more difficult to neut down a pulsar, which is the only way many gangs can kill them. Add this in and they can be fit for even more recharge, or to local tank through a talisman bhaalgorn and two moros at the same time, cap stable."

So you're absolutely correct, lifting the exclusion wouldn't be bhaalgorn+moros, it'd be talisman bhaalgorn+2 moros.

sure, but it's like saying Black Holes are OP cos dramiels can go 12k/s in there so no one can catch them.

PS: i's irrelevant anyway, cap fights in WHs are not 1v1 anymore, theyre 5v5+ so youre still fine and people bring 5 neut ships, not one, so again youre fine.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#47 - 2014-04-05 23:30:37 UTC
God this thread is full of bads. A few points:

1) Pulsars strong encouraging shield comps is great. Why do they also have to have a *giant* boost to cap? What if the cap boost was reduced, perhaps with some small boost to shield boost amount to keep active tanking about the same as it is now? Would that ruin everyone's game?

2) Shield links not being consistent is dumb. New people don't understand it, it doesn't make sense, and it would be good if it was fixed.

3) None of the current CSMs were arguing anything at all different from what I am saying here. They were dumb because they didn't think to maybe get a little more explanation in the minutes, and also by not getting out in front of this by posting here as soon as the minutes come out, but their hearts were in the right place.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#48 - 2014-04-05 23:41:34 UTC
Take away the cap bonus but give us shield resists, on top of the buffer bonus. ^_^

No trolling please

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#49 - 2014-04-05 23:53:03 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Take away the cap bonus but give us shield resists, on top of the buffer bonus. ^_^


Fine with me. My issue is that killing things like this 44 BILLION ISK carrier took 3 dreads, 3 BSes and 24 T3s quite a while. Pimped out Chimeras in Pulsars are basically immune to neuts, unless you have a bunch of bhaals, and those bhaals don't get blapped by a dread who can hit them easily because of the giant sig radius.

Make ships in Pulsars tough to kill, but they need a weakness. Right now you just have DPS, and you need a lot to outrun a ship fit like the one I linked.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#50 - 2014-04-06 00:04:48 UTC
Two step wrote:

Fine with me. My issue is that killing things like this 44 BILLION ISK carrier took 3 dreads, 3 BSes and 24 T3s quite a while. Pimped out Chimeras in Pulsars are basically immune to neuts, unless you have a bunch of bhaals, and those bhaals don't get blapped by a dread who can hit them easily because of the giant sig radius.

Make ships in Pulsars tough to kill, but they need a weakness. Right now you just have DPS, and you need a lot to outrun a ship fit like the one I linked.


He spent 44bil on it. It should tank like a beast. P

But as far as the issue of Pulsar shield caps goes, I was serious about the resists instead of caps. And lets not forget command boosts in a cataclysmic wh either, because that would be pretty beastly as well.

No trolling please

Illipsys
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-04-06 00:11:00 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
he responses to this coming from the current WH CSM are too easy and plentiful to warrant posting.

Congrats on flying shield ships, remember you still need to leave a midslot on the prot for the scram but I'm sure you already thought of that.


Wow, aren't you mad. I can only hope you are trolling or are actually just plain stupid, as your sig suggests.

Winthorp wrote:
James Arget wrote:
Fun fact, while you're slinging bullshit at SSC, we're currently in the midst of a fantastic concept called "shield month" where we will be flying, you guess it, shield ships. Clearly we have no desire to ever adapt or work hard.


How will you guys cope without 11 guardians to your other 11 DPS ships?


For a group who almost unilaterally flies around in what are currently considered 'broken' ships ( i love them myself ) you complain an aweful lot. We're doing a big drive to get people in shield boats, but since you guys fly in them all day, and have a home advantage in them, I guess you miss why other people, who do not have the forementioned, choose not to engage you. Idiot.

Both CSM's, for good or bad, are doing their best. They also play eve and have real lives, so apologies if they aren't as transparent as you'd like, perhaps if you paid them for doing a job maybe they will respond with your required urgency to all future butthurt forumposts rather than leading their otherwise guiltridden lives ( we love playing them off against eachother )

I can see why people dislike the idea of wolf-rayet / pulsar changes, but look at the wider picture outside wormholes and try to understand how they are mitigating the potential effects on you, rather than letting CCP steamroll and let stupid **** happen.

K162's terrible idea chitsa - bad bad bad. Back to ragerolling ( terrible ) and all the power in hands of aggressor ( terrible ) - no 'fights' just 'ganks' which I think we can all agree, are not as entertaining as the former.

@ Jack - you're just arguing for the sake of it buddy, whysomad?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-04-06 00:15:30 UTC
Illipsys wrote:
@ Jack - you're just arguing for the sake of it buddy, whysomad?

I've developed a zero tolerance for changes to WH space because every single change that has been made to them so far has been bad and poorly implemented.

They aren't broken, don't touch them.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#53 - 2014-04-06 00:21:15 UTC
Illipsys wrote:


Both CSM's, for good or bad, are doing their best. They also play eve and have real lives, so apologies if they aren't as transparent as you'd like, perhaps if you paid them for doing a job maybe they will respond with your required urgency to all future butthurt forumposts rather than leading their otherwise guiltridden lives ( we love playing them off against eachother )


The Chitsa promised to quit his job and CSM full time, which apparently lasted for a few weeks until he discovered the CSM wasn't paid or something and even The Chitsa doesn't get free rent. It was a real campaign promise of his though.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#54 - 2014-04-06 00:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Nucleus
Illipsys wrote:

For a group who almost unilaterally flies around in what are currently considered 'broken' ships ( i love them myself ) you complain an aweful lot. We're doing a big drive to get people in shield boats, but since you guys fly in them all day, and have a home advantage in them, I guess you miss why other people, who do not have the forementioned, choose not to engage you. Idiot.


Why wouldn't any respectable wormhole corp have a fleet comp for different wormhole effects? It seems silly to think that people wouldn't prepare for a changing environment. And before I really stir up the hornets nest, that is a general statement and not geared to any corp specifically. (except hathrul)

As far as homefield advantage goes, we will jump into just about anyone's wormhole, regardless of what advantages they get. Any fight where you start off with a handicap are some of the fun ones you will ever get.

No trolling please

Illipsys
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-04-06 00:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Illipsys
Bane Nucleus wrote:
EDIT


now you just have me curious...

@ Jack - I appreciate your apathy and share most of your sentiments, but god damn am I happy I can change subsystems now!

@ Twostep - All politicians run on empty promises, he's even found a lady now! We have to fight hard to make him do his summary whelps even!
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#56 - 2014-04-06 00:38:59 UTC
I reposted =P

No trolling please

Winthorp
#57 - 2014-04-06 00:41:33 UTC
Illipsys wrote:
For a group who almost unilaterally flies around in what are currently considered 'broken' ships ( i love them myself ) you complain an aweful lot. We're doing a big drive to get people in shield boats, but since you guys fly in them all day, and have a home advantage in them, I guess you miss why other people, who do not have the forementioned, choose not to engage you. Idiot.


Actually we don't fly in shields ships all that much TBH and most of our brawl gangs are Armor T3's. I just hope after your flavor of the month shield flying you find a suitable shield doctrine to keep in your armament, i like fighting you guys but i dislike seeing all your buthurt in local chat when we have reshipped into a shield composition in our Pulsar and wont take the range shield fleet to 0m on the other side of the Wh to suit your Armor T3 gang with 11 guardians...
Illipsys
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-04-06 00:55:52 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Illipsys wrote:

For a group who almost unilaterally flies around in what are currently considered 'broken' ships ( i love them myself ) you complain an aweful lot. We're doing a big drive to get people in shield boats, but since you guys fly in them all day, and have a home advantage in them, I guess you miss why other people, who do not have the forementioned, choose not to engage you. Idiot.


Why wouldn't any respectable wormhole corp have a fleet comp for different wormhole effects? It seems silly to think that people wouldn't prepare for a changing environment. And before I really stir up the hornets nest, that is a general statement and not geared to any corp specifically. (except hathrul)

As far as homefield advantage goes, we will jump into just about anyone's wormhole, regardless of what advantages they get. Any fight where you start off with a handicap are some of the fun ones you will ever get.


We aren't any old un-self-respecting wormhole corp, we're SSC and we're ******* terrible at herding cats. "can i bring my drake" was a genuine thing on comms when asking for shied stuff to shoot **** in pulsars. We don't mandate ships that people 'have' to have - but we're gently nudging people in that direction, so do bare with us while the stubborn amarrians catchup with the rest of eve.

Regarding homefield advantage, we (you & I, the corp LOVES to welp, see how many dread losses we have) differ in playstyles :) I don't like whelping **** for the sake of saying "i did it" - I like to have a chance, and if I get all my cats into proper shield ships, i'll take it. Until then, McDrakey has to sit on the sidelines. Oops

@ Winthorp - I too like fighting you guys, but dislike your terrible, terrible QQ on forums about us. You're like a whiny broken record, man up and come shoot me.
Winthorp
#59 - 2014-04-06 01:03:23 UTC
Illipsys wrote:


@ Winthorp - I too like fighting you guys, but dislike your terrible, terrible QQ on forums about us. You're like a whiny broken record, man up and come shoot me.


I do try.
The Cue
Violence is the Answer
#60 - 2014-04-06 03:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: The Cue
If the pulsar effect is so game breaking, it seems pretty simple to tone the cap down for another bonus, maybe something that doesn't exist in the variable effects yet?

How about this:
Cap recharge becomes:
Capacitor recharge -5% -9% -13% -17% -20% -25%
and pulsars gain:
Optimal +5% +9% +13% +17% +20% +25%
Falloff +5% +9% +13% +17% +20% +25%

Which happens to match extremely well with the added targeting Range bonus. It's just half of the cap bonus with the Optimal and Fall off penalty from Black Holes applied at half and reversed.