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So, CSM 8 Members....

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#21 - 2014-04-05 17:13:31 UTC
James Arget wrote:
If you don't think that's broken, I don't know what to tell you. Wolf-Rayets are pretty well balanced at the moment, and aren't insanely strong even though the effect is formidable. They're really only mentioned because they're the flip side of a pulsar. I feel pulsars synergize perhaps a bit too well with Chimeras, but I would only want minor changes (only the cap rechage bonus) if nothing else is being changed that would affect them; i.e. command link effectiveness.

You can put away the pitchforks now.


I don't really see them as broken as much as anything it seems more people's fear of the unknown or innovation than the mechanic itself is a problem. People like ADHC, AHARM and VoC, etc. have over the years taken fights in them and come up with ways to overcome the mechanics (even if sometimes its just bring all the DPS possible) - living in a C5 pulsar for 18 months back in the day it was something I had an interest in and kept half an eye on what other people were doing in them.
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-04-05 17:26:46 UTC
So after carefully reading the minutes all I get from any mention of Pulsar and Wolf Rayets is that those systems effects would have to be looked at as well as the Black Hole effect. What I understand from this is that CCP wouldn't want to only "fix" Black Holes, they would want to do an iteration on the entire Wormhole Space Effects game mechanics which, considering they haven't been looked at since Apocrypha (with the exception of fixing a few exploitable situations) I support the idea of them looking at this mechanic.

I will not say "No you can not change this!!!!!" before I know what it is they plan to do and for that to happen they actually have to look at the game mechanic and think about it more thoroughly then a 3 minute discussion during a CSM summit where they have SO MANY things to cover!.
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#23 - 2014-04-05 17:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Braxus Deninard
James Arget wrote:
Which is funny, because it says right there why the change is even on the table. Right now capital shield boosters are unaffected by shield command links. During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable. If you don't think that's broken, I don't know what to tell you. Wolf-Rayets are pretty well balanced at the moment, and aren't insanely strong even though the effect is formidable. They're really only mentioned because they're the flip side of a pulsar. I feel pulsars synergize perhaps a bit too well with Chimeras, but I would only want minor changes (only the cap rechage bonus) if nothing else is being changed that would affect them; i.e. command link effectiveness..


What I don't get is why an explanation like that wasn't in the minutes. I get that minutes are meant to generally be a pretty concise summary of the proceedings, but you can understand why people get angry when there's proposed changes listed, but then no explanation behind them - and then no communication about the minutes after their release.

Having said all that I think most of the concern with those minutes surrounds Chitsa supporting terrible ideas.
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#24 - 2014-04-05 17:27:28 UTC
Rroff wrote:
James Arget wrote:
If you don't think that's broken, I don't know what to tell you. Wolf-Rayets are pretty well balanced at the moment, and aren't insanely strong even though the effect is formidable. They're really only mentioned because they're the flip side of a pulsar. I feel pulsars synergize perhaps a bit too well with Chimeras, but I would only want minor changes (only the cap rechage bonus) if nothing else is being changed that would affect them; i.e. command link effectiveness.

You can put away the pitchforks now.


I don't really see them as broken as much as anything it seems more people's fear of the unknown or innovation than the mechanic itself is a problem. People like ADHC, AHARM and VoC, etc. have over the years taken fights in them and come up with ways to overcome the mechanics (even if sometimes its just bring all the DPS possible) - living in a C5 pulsar for 18 months back in the day it was something I had an interest in and kept half an eye on what other people were doing in them.

Why the hell did you cut off the part of the quote which cited what was broken? I don't think any current effect is truly broken right now. Black holes are very weak. Magnetars and Pulsars are very strong. Wolf Rayets and Cataclysmics are strong. None of them are broken, and we must be careful that various changes to game mechanics don't break them.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#25 - 2014-04-05 17:30:28 UTC
Braxus Deninard wrote:
James Arget wrote:
Which is funny, because it says right there why the change is even on the table. Right now capital shield boosters are unaffected by shield command links. During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable. If you don't think that's broken, I don't know what to tell you. Wolf-Rayets are pretty well balanced at the moment, and aren't insanely strong even though the effect is formidable. They're really only mentioned because they're the flip side of a pulsar. I feel pulsars synergize perhaps a bit too well with Chimeras, but I would only want minor changes (only the cap rechage bonus) if nothing else is being changed that would affect them; i.e. command link effectiveness..


What I don't get is why an explanation like that wasn't in the minutes. I get that minutes are meant to generally be a pretty concise summary of the proceedings, but you can understand why people get angry when there's proposed changes listed, but then no explanation behind them - and then no communication about the minutes after their release.

Quote:
(mostly due to inability to buff capital
reps because of those systems).

:jackiechan:

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#26 - 2014-04-05 17:38:53 UTC
James Arget wrote:

Why the hell did you cut off the part of the quote which cited what was broken? I don't think any current effect is truly broken right now. Black holes are very weak. Magnetars and Pulsars are very strong. Wolf Rayets and Cataclysmics are strong. None of them are broken, and we must be careful that various changes to game mechanics don't break them.


Because its just one example of several ways the pulsar effect could be considered over the top. I'm also not keen on seeing them nerfed as it tends to encourage people to seriously bling stuff in a pulsar which makes for some nice killmails when you do kill stuff - you don't often see 40bn ISK archons even in WRs heh.
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#27 - 2014-04-05 17:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Braxus Deninard
James Arget wrote:
Braxus Deninard wrote:
James Arget wrote:
Which is funny, because it says right there why the change is even on the table. Right now capital shield boosters are unaffected by shield command links. During the command ship and boosting rebalance, CCP Fozzie planned to change them so they would affect cap shield boosters as well. Except, if that were to happen, a well fit Chimera would be able to tank a Bhaalgorn and Moros, and run local AND triage reps, all cap stable. If you don't think that's broken, I don't know what to tell you. Wolf-Rayets are pretty well balanced at the moment, and aren't insanely strong even though the effect is formidable. They're really only mentioned because they're the flip side of a pulsar. I feel pulsars synergize perhaps a bit too well with Chimeras, but I would only want minor changes (only the cap rechage bonus) if nothing else is being changed that would affect them; i.e. command link effectiveness..


What I don't get is why an explanation like that wasn't in the minutes. I get that minutes are meant to generally be a pretty concise summary of the proceedings, but you can understand why people get angry when there's proposed changes listed, but then no explanation behind them - and then no communication about the minutes after their release.

Quote:
(mostly due to inability to buff capital
reps because of those systems).

:jackiechan:


While that explains why the change is being looked at, what I more meant was that it doesn't explain what sort of changes are being proposed to remedy it - I imagine the reaction here is because people are worried of a serious pulsar or WR nerf, with no explanation other than "we can't buff capital reps in these systems".

It is definitely concerning that a nerf of an entire system effect is being looked at because of one ship.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#28 - 2014-04-05 17:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
End of the day it won't actually make much odds anyhow as either people win those fights due to having come up with a way to beat the effects - or because someone runs out of stront - within reason that would still be the same post any buff that made those setups even more powerful.

I guess a possible balance would be to make stront consumption higher in those systems to balance capitals but I'm not really a fan of changing them.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#29 - 2014-04-05 18:08:14 UTC
A lot of people simply will not reship to fight in a different type of wormhole. Even if they reduce the Pulsar's cap bonus, those same people still won't jump in. This is something I can't understand myself, as I love having to fly something different to adjust to a certain environment. It makes the game a lot more fun when you actually have to try something different

No trolling please
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#30 - 2014-04-05 18:11:10 UTC
I'm confused. Are we still bitching about the minutes, and how it was missed that this discussion was only because of changing command boosts as they affect cap shield boosters, or is this now just a "let's ***** about pulsars" thread?

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
Alundil
Rolled Out
#31 - 2014-04-05 18:41:51 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
These minutes confirm what anyone with half a brain already knew. The current WH CSM's HAVE TO GO!! Thank God it's only one to get rid of.

Every new iteration discussed have been around making it easier and fluffier for C5/C6 folks (to the point where these minutes are even specific about it being mostly related to cap reps and I would bet my left nut that over 90% of caps in W-space are in C5/C6 space).

So summarizing whats going to be cool about being in a C5/C6 soon. You'll be able to armchair roll knowing any targets you find can't see you until its too late. Haven't got the fleet comp to combat a pulsar fleet? No problem we nerfed the effects for you guys! Black Hole? thats ok because everybody moved their hulks into them now because they really are as stupid as you think they are.

But hey let's not forget that James looks at his Siphons everyday and then gets the kid at the end of The Simpsons to say "I made this!"

Looking at it top down, the only real representation is going to come in the future from people in lower W-space or outside of W-space because it is obvious none of our recent CSMs can make a decision without running it through the C5/C6 "What's in it for SSC and bros?" mill first.

I pray the current candidates can make a strong and compelling condemnation of the current CSM and sell the community on being able to think of us all as a whole but I would not be surprised to find that the WH community start to believe that WH's are best represented by proven CSM "listeners" outside of W-space than those in them.

Ball's in your court guys.

I agree that some of the suggestions and desires of the current wh csm are not terrific fits for the majority of the wh population. There certainly seems to be some preferential considerations being given to certain play styles.

My wh life is pretty similar in history to Kynric's. C2/C3 and C2/C4 and now C5/C5. So having been in the lower class systems in much smaller groups I know what it feels like to get rolled into by a 40 man armor T3 gang. There's literally nothing to do when that happens other than pos/cloak up or welp your group into them just to feed Bob.

That said there's very little wrong with wh system effects other than perhaps black holes. And there definitely nothing wrong, as far as I can tell, with capital reps. As such buffing them has to be one of the most 'pants on head'things I've read in at least a few weeks.

I'm right behind you
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#32 - 2014-04-05 19:01:15 UTC
LINKEDY

Congrats to NoHo for proving you only need to work hard (Even with an armor subcap fleet) to take down a bling chim in a C6 Pulsar. Blink

Sorry SSC doesn't want to work hard. Sad

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#33 - 2014-04-05 19:11:50 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
LINKEDY

Congrats to NoHo for proving you only need to work hard (Even with an armor subcap fleet) to take down a bling chim in a C6 Pulsar. Blink

Sorry SSC doesn't want to work hard. Sad

Are you actively trying to be bad and miss the point, or does it come naturally?
James Arget wrote:
I don't think any current effect is truly broken right now.

Fun fact, while you're slinging bullshit at SSC, we're currently in the midst of a fantastic concept called "shield month" where we will be flying, you guess it, shield ships. Clearly we have no desire to ever adapt or work hard.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#34 - 2014-04-05 19:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: AssassinationsdoneWrong
James Arget wrote:

Are you actively trying to be bad and miss the point, or does it come naturally?


The responses to this coming from the current WH CSM are too easy and plentiful to warrant posting.

Congrats on flying shield ships, remember you still need to leave a midslot on the prot for the scram but I'm sure you already thought of that.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#35 - 2014-04-05 20:03:29 UTC
In fairness, a chimera getting boosts in a pulsar would be beyond OP. Same in a cata. My question is do caps really need to get boosts to repping? I thought that was why I trained for t2 triage.

No trolling please
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#36 - 2014-04-05 20:42:54 UTC
So, I just got CCP Fozzie on the line to make sure that yes, I was correct in what was being discussed in the minutes.

So, I'll take this from the top, in order to avoid confusion. From ye olden days of command links, some shield links have had exclusions. The shield links which reduce cap use and cycle time exclude capital local shield boosters. These are the only modules that the average capsuleer would expect to receive their benefit, but do not.

With Odyssey 1.1, Fozzie looked at all the command links as well as command ships, to balance and improve them and all that good stuff. He planned to remove the exclusion that capital shield boosters received, making all shield links affect all shield reps and boosters. With great vigor and haste, I made Fozzie aware that such a change would be extremely powerful in Pulsar effect wormholes due to the bonuses that are given. Fozzie agreed, and the exclusion was kept in place, but he still wants to lift that exclusion in the future.

That's what's being discussed here, although I can already hear Fozzie saying "on a long enough time scale everything in game will be rebalanced." We're not out to nerf your home, we're looking at how to make game-wide improvements.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-04-05 21:15:49 UTC
Quote:
CCP Bettik then explained that there are two options, where they could just delay it on the
sensor overlay, but not to probes, or they could delay it for everything, including probes.

A question about this, does he mean only the overlay you see in space or does that include the signature list in the scan-> probe scan window?
I just want to know if it is possbile to delay the overview in space and the signature list . But if you scan with probes it does show up.
Most people seem to want that.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Winthorp
#38 - 2014-04-05 21:37:49 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
A lot of people simply will not reship to fight in a different type of wormhole. Even if they reduce the Pulsar's cap bonus, those same people still won't jump in. This is something I can't understand myself, as I love having to fly something different to adjust to a certain environment. It makes the game a lot more fun when you actually have to try something different


Its ok Bane you can't expect them to have 5 Armor t3's to field each and have a shield ship to field for possible fights also... We ask too much of kids these days.
Winthorp
#39 - 2014-04-05 21:48:34 UTC
James Arget wrote:
Fun fact, while you're slinging bullshit at SSC, we're currently in the midst of a fantastic concept called "shield month" where we will be flying, you guess it, shield ships. Clearly we have no desire to ever adapt or work hard.


How will you guys cope without 11 guardians to your other 11 DPS ships?
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#40 - 2014-04-05 21:59:49 UTC
James Arget wrote:
So, I just got CCP Fozzie on the line to make sure that yes, I was correct in what was being discussed in the minutes.

So, I'll take this from the top, in order to avoid confusion. From ye olden days of command links, some shield links have had exclusions. The shield links which reduce cap use and cycle time exclude capital local shield boosters. These are the only modules that the average capsuleer would expect to receive their benefit, but do not.

With Odyssey 1.1, Fozzie looked at all the command links as well as command ships, to balance and improve them and all that good stuff. He planned to remove the exclusion that capital shield boosters received, making all shield links affect all shield reps and boosters. With great vigor and haste, I made Fozzie aware that such a change would be extremely powerful in Pulsar effect wormholes due to the bonuses that are given. Fozzie agreed, and the exclusion was kept in place, but he still wants to lift that exclusion in the future.

That's what's being discussed here, although I can already hear Fozzie saying "on a long enough time scale everything in game will be rebalanced." We're not out to nerf your home, we're looking at how to make game-wide improvements.


I agree that giving command boosts to shield caps in a pulsar would be far too much. I just hope that when they do make the game wide improvements, they keep in mind that the variety of different wormholes is a wonderful thing.

No trolling please