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Unfortunately, with fitting tweaks, Dramiel is just as good as before
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2011-12-01 00:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
The Dramiel's prices in the market have been dropping like a Rokh. Yes, it got nerfed, but I don't think most people realize that it can still fill the same role, despite the nerf.

I grabbed the "testing" EFT with data from the SiSi Crucible build (it is only missing extra damage for blasters, which is irrelevant anyway) to try out some fittings for the new Dramiel. I have found that if, in the old "classic" dual-prop Dramiel fit, you replace the MAPC with a nano, and use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig, you get a Dramiel in the new system that is funcionally identical to the old one, albeit with a bit lower numbers. The detailed screenshots are here, but some highlights:


  • Speed (AB, no heat): Old = 1932 m/s, New = 1849 m/s
  • Speed (MWD, no heat): Old = 5059 m/s, New = 4696 m/s
  • DPS (no heat, with drones): Old = 183, New = 171
  • EHP: Old = 7011, New = 6688 (due to nano; shield and armor hp are same)
  • Align time (AB, no heat): Old = 3.8 s, New = 3.7 s (due to nano)
  • Scan res: Old = 1237.5 mm, New = 937.5 mm


(I will update these with Crucible EFT once it comes out)

This is not a significant nerf! Sure, it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills), but perhaps without good skills you shouldn't be flying a pirate faction frigate.

I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel, because very little has changed about it. As someone who likes flying a variety of frigate and cruiser sized ships, I am a bit disappointed that this drop in the Dramiel population is likely only going to be a momentary thing.


Edited for link fail
Edited for scan res, not sig res

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Sin Meng
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#2 - 2011-12-01 00:08:59 UTC
Half the power of a nerf comes from the gesture itself, and now you've ruined it!

No seriously, you're going to make people fly this thing again.

Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#3 - 2011-12-01 00:10:19 UTC
It's best to make these things come to light publicly rather than have Dramiel pilots "keep a secret" that it's still just as good. Better chance of people doing something about this this way.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-12-01 00:10:47 UTC
Quote:
it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills)


You said it right there, now not any tom **** and harry can fly it...theres your nerf, plus some of the minus stats on top of that..
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-12-01 00:11:13 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig,


What's the price on that baby?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2011-12-01 00:12:14 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig,


What's the price on that baby?


15 mil. Hardly a reason not to fly the Dramiel, considering it's classically fit with expensive stuff to begin with.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#7 - 2011-12-01 00:12:55 UTC
This is how balance works, small changes can lead to large changes in effectiveness. No ship has a particularly large lead over the others (at least the ones for particular roles, PvE vs PvP ships not withstanding).
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#8 - 2011-12-01 00:13:38 UTC
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
Quote:
it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills)


You said it right there, now not any tom **** and harry can fly it...theres your nerf, plus some of the minus stats on top of that..


If only it were the idiots flying it that were the problem. The people without good fitting skills would probably fly arty Dramiel or other such abominations. The ones who know how to fly it also know how to fit ships very tightly for PvP, and that includes tight fitting skills.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#9 - 2011-12-01 00:18:22 UTC
Purpose was not to make it useless either, it got just a bit nerf.

You should also remember that some other frigates got some boost at same time so overall result can be still balanced.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2011-12-01 00:26:55 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Purpose was not to make it useless either, it got just a bit nerf.

You should also remember that some other frigates got some boost at same time so overall result can be still balanced.



So far as I understood from F&I discussion, the purpose was to eliminate the asshattery of the dual-prop MSE fit, since with its AB speed the Dramiel couldn't be caught or combated by almost anything. IMO, the change in numbers shown is not enough to fulfill that purpose. Every other faction frigate is a lot less survivable, while not being much more powerful in raw power than the Dramiel. Look at the Cruor, Succubus, Worm, and even the Daredevil (even if one has a good chance to murder a Dramiel 1v1).

I was expecting the Dramiel to be as much a valid choice as the other pirate faction frigates -- specialty "shiny" ships that you use to minmax them to their strengths, which absolutely shine in some situations, but give you an embarassing lossmail when used in the wrong situation. With dual-prop and MSE, the Dramiel misses the latter part, making it far more dangerous than the others.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#11 - 2011-12-01 00:31:43 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
The Dramiel's prices in the market have been dropping like a Rokh. Yes, it got nerfed, but I don't think most people realize that it can still fill the same role, despite the nerf.

I grabbed the "testing" EFT with data from the SiSi Crucible build (it is only missing extra damage for blasters, which is irrelevant anyway) to try out some fittings for the new Dramiel. I have found that if, in the old "classic" dual-prop Dramiel fit, you replace the MAPC with a nano, and use a Small Ancillary Current Router II rig, you get a Dramiel in the new system that is funcionally identical to the old one, albeit with a bit lower numbers. The detailed screenshots are here, but some highlights:


  • Speed (AB, no heat): Old = 1932 m/s, New = 1849 m/s
  • Speed (MWD, no heat): Old = 5059 m/s, New = 4696 m/s
  • DPS (no heat, with drones): Old = 183, New = 171
  • EHP: Old = 7011, New = 6688 (due to nano; shield and armor hp are same)
  • Align time (AB, no heat): Old = 3.8 s, New = 3.7 s (due to nano)
  • Sig res: Old = 1237.5 mm, New = 937.5 mm


(I will update these with Crucible EFT once it comes out)

This is not a significant nerf! Sure, it's a bit harder to fit (you need near-perfect or perfect fitting skills), but perhaps without good skills you shouldn't be flying a pirate faction frigate.

I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel, because very little has changed about it. As someone who likes flying a variety of frigate and cruiser sized ships, I am a bit disappointed that this drop in the Dramiel population is likely only going to be a momentary thing.

Edited for link fail



Thanks for figuring that out, it seems that CCP still has a hardon for Minmatar, they just can't get themselves to stop making it uber.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-12-01 00:36:47 UTC
Looks like it needs a 50% speed nerf, not 5%

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Warlord DerekSegan
Fatal Solution
#13 - 2011-12-01 00:41:55 UTC
Hm..

It isn't as good as it was before, certainly. It's not an iWin button.

But you are right, it still is either the best or second best frigate hull.

But I am OK with that.
Marcus Caspius
#14 - 2011-12-01 01:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Caspius
Stop @#$^%@#$ crying and friggin' adapt! X

World of Whiners is that way --->>>

Grammatical error and spelling mistakes are included for your entertainment!
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#15 - 2011-12-01 01:27:19 UTC
Marcus Caspius wrote:
Stop @#$^%@#$ crying and friggin' adapt! X

World of Whiners is that way --->>>



Says the obvious Dram pilot who can't bear to see his ezmode nerfed.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#16 - 2011-12-01 02:32:51 UTC
Quote:
I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel,


Dual prop was the main nerf.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2011-12-01 02:55:14 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
I am wondering what specific effect the nerf was supposed to have on the Dramiel,


Dual prop was the main nerf.


So now they have to choose.

Do I want to go 3 times as fast as anybody else, or 5 times as fast?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-12-01 03:05:43 UTC
To be fair the "requires a t2 rig" makes it more expensive in both fitting and isk, I think it's ok for now.... maybe we should just wait and see...

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-12-01 03:23:05 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Looks like it needs a 50% speed nerf, not 5%



and make it useless?

now don't get me wrong. dram needed a nerf. But between just "nerfing" it or making it totally useless, I prefer the former.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#20 - 2011-12-01 04:07:25 UTC
None of this really matters, since with a 10% damage buff the Daredevil will be the new Dramiel anyways. And by that I mean, a perfectly killable frigate that is declared to be "unbeatable" in solo engagements and therefore fuels forum threads full of angst for a few more months until the next round of balancing elevates something else to the pole position.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
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