Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well, it is what it is.

Besides, there isn't always some one around who wants to rat, so having solo options is nice. And the game does offer group activities, like w-space and Incursions. No one really expects nullsec to be all things to all people. Well, maybe some people do, but few of them actually live here.

It is quite possible to make a more gradual set of changes, which do not require anything as extreme as total removal of local.

I have links to these in my sig, if you wish to discover details.

Mine with support fleet or get ganked. I think that's acceptable.

I bet your'e the kind of guy that thinks civilian fishing boats should have .50 BMG's on deck.

I don't think anyone advocating a change to local chat wants to deny miners a chance to escape conflict. Wormhole miners (although there are less of them now that ore sites are anomalies) seek to escape conflict too. They do this by posting scouts on entrances (if they are wise).

Neither do I believe that the advocates of a more challenging local system simply seek heartless slayings of innocent PVEers (although that can be fun if they are in expensively fitted ships, I'll admit).

The problem with local chat is that it disallows the use of stealth in any meaningful way, which somewhat obviates offensive cloaking ships. Since pve (and pvp) players will flee or dock the moment a non-blue enters system, it does not matter what ship that person is in or whether they are cloaked. Their mere presences results in a stampede.

If the locals do wish to mount a response, almost all the meaningful data is already available from within a station: how many toons are online?

We don't really need to know what ships they are in because we can reasonably infer it from the numbers.

If a player is in local and not visible on d-scan, he can only be in one of a subset of ship types.

In any case, I think centering the discussion around the effects on mining and mission hubs is disingenuous. I don;t think that anyone is advocating the eradication of local in systems that have alliance investment. But in the wilderlands between the civilised systems on 0.0, I think there is a good argument for it.

Wormholes operate on an entirely different set of principals. Navigation itself is more of a challenge as destinations are not static, and there are no guarantees your whole gang will go anywhere. Cynos do not work, so there is no expectation or guarantee of escalation.

Your hunters are more dangerous, but far less numerous, and you can effectively secure your space as a much smaller group than can manage the same feat in K-space.

The two rulesets are simply not directly comparable. It may be that the most effective answer is to resolve balance issues by having 2 types of cloak, one that only works in wormholes and one for everywhere else with each reflecting the balance of the prevailing ruleset of the area.

The problem with allowing "meanigful" stealth is that it can be used to completely disallow any chance of survival to whole classes of ships. So long as it can be used to trap and destroy ships that have no real defense options but evasion it will be OP in its current uncounterable form and cannot exist in the absence of a system similar to what local provides under the ruleset that exists in K-space.

Of course these ships run at the first neutral... They cannot afford to wait and see. Combat is not a contest or gamble for them. They lose, without question or any chance of error. If tackle was chance based or had a realistic defense for these ships you might find some willing to risk your presence and wait until you attack to flee-- but so long as any engagement is guaranteed death their only realistic choice is to run and cut their losses.

Its not that fights cannt be found. Without exception in the areas where local is useful for evasion somewhere nearby is a fleet interdicting travel through a gate, and likely a combat wing waiting to fly defensive actions. Those should be your targets if you are roaming for a fight-- they are happy to oblige and will not flee from even a fleet of hostiles.

I've seen a skiff used as mining bait in a wormhole. It was very effective and cost me a proteus and a tengu. I saluted the guy for his nerve and skill. The drones he used were ec-600s, which turned out to be surprisingly effective against a proteus.

My point is that it's not zero effort to gain the benefit.

Local isn't your problem. The fact that the space you are hunting in has been cleared of hostiles is. It has been cleared, and stays clear due to the efforts of those holding the space.

You didn't build your own ship. Should you have to build every shred of ammo, every module, and every hull you use? Of course not, MMO's are all about group efforts and interactive play.

The same is true of what you are not liking here. The nullbears are hunting in space cleared by their allies. They deserve the chance to flee that they are using because they have allies keeping that space clear. Go hunt the guards and they won't be running so fast.

There is no enduring defense mechanic, which results from the fleet actions that placed the POS and Outposts in null, beyond those very structures themselves.

The gate camps are able to keep out front line ships, or give warning that they are incoming.
If you want to stop fighting ships, you need fighting ships.

That is how it works.

You don't get a do not disturb sign on your gates.
Hostile pilots are kept out exclusively by the degree of difficulty reaching you.

If you can't fight back, and noone is offering to fight for you, the answer is not to force other players to leave by adding new mechanics.
Null sov is quite successful, and requires no help along these lines.

This problem is exclusive to solo and small group PvE, where the sov holders are not present in enough force to deter stealthy hostiles.

I believe the answer is upgrading the PvE shipping to being able to fight against the expected stealthed hostiles.

"Mommy, they wont play with meeeee" is all you are really saying.

What were they doing before you arrived? Did you prevent it from happening? You won. End of story. Sorry you didnt get a kill mail and a small explosion animation. Were their ships prepared to withstand the alpha you can put out? EVEs mantra is Dont fly what you are not prepared to lose. They clearly had the strength for what they were doing, but judged you capable of destroying them, so docked. Why do you care? Go back to your wormhole anf hunt there. For the Lord's sake, what do you want, NPC target bouys that bleat tears in local when shot and drop random loot?

Lets pretend there was a PvP escort fleet on a group of miners. What stops you from warping, popping the miner and then engaging the escorts? Exactly. Nothing. The miner has to run anyway if he wants a chance at survival. The presence or absence of an escort at the moment a hostile comes in system means nothing to him because his own survival hinges on evasion. Why bother with your own dedicated on grid defense fleet when they can form up in a central location and fly out to engage hostiles that linger. It makes not one ounce of difference to the miner either way. Hell, bring your own miner and wait for the locals to show up and take shots at him.

Its null sec. At any time the guy comeing in the gate represents anything from a newbie frigate to a titan fleet. You run because you dont risk a ship upon being engaged, you lose it no questions asked unless your attacker is incompetant.

Wormhole space is not defined by local chat's delayed mode.

The name alone should point out the key aspect that does define it, seriously.

I get that worm holes do not have local.
The argument that those wanting to remove local should move into a wh, falls flat due to the other differences between the two play areas.

I also acknowledge these differences make wormholes unique. This does not, however, mean that the delayed local mechanic can only work in this environment. It just means wormholes have multiple mechanics designed to isolate them and limit them to what can happen inside.

This is why I advocate a partial change to local as follows:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739

And then a means to hunt cloaked vessels based on duplicating the requirements to pilot cloaked vessels:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2668453#post2668453

These would work together to restore value to player driven intel, and offer PvE pilots like me a new way to actually compete with each other.