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Risk Free Game Play

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Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#1 - 2014-04-02 23:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazumi Amaterasu
There are several problems I have with the risk free cloaking system that we have now, and none of them have to do with AFK cloaking because you're right, it's stupid to be afraid of someone who isnt there.

It Makes You Completely Safe - You should never be completely safe in null sec. In fact I believe stations should be destructible for that very reason

Cloaked Ships Can Effect Fleets - Proponents of risk free cloaking will tell you that cloaked ships cant do anything to you, so they're perfectly justified in being safe. This would be a good argument if it were true, but it isnt. Cloaked ships can still use probes, directional scanners, local, and the overview to obtain fleet composition and location in system. Additionally they can provide warp-ins, safe spots and set up bookmarks, all of which are crucial and all of which are to be had risk free using cloaked ships

Every Cloaked Ship Represents A 250 Man Fleet - With the prevalence of titans and the low cost of bridging, you must assume that every cloaked ship has a titan with a fleet ready to pounce backing it up. If you're not ready to deal with that, then you're left hoping that he doesnt have backup, and hoping isnt a plan, hoping is what you do when a plan fails.

Cloaking Drastically Unbalances 0.0 - #1 and #3 make the parts of 0.0 that are not in jump range of low sec or NPC null sec orders of magnitude better than the parts that are. This also means that coalitions that control large swaths of space are better off because their members can go ratting in the middle of their space without fearing a hot drop. Take the system UJY-HE for example. Every system in jump range of that system is also in goon friendly hands, so you can confidently go ratting in a group of 4-5 knowing that even if he has a cyno he cant hot drop you.

In WH space nobody complains about cloakers, and the proponents of risk free cloaking say this is because there is no local so the cloakers are not ever seen. I disagree, I believe nobody complains about cloakers in WH space because they know they never have to worry about the hot drop. Its actually viable to go ratting because you dont have to go ratting with a 250 man fleet to protect against the hot drop, ratting in groups of 3-4 actually provides you with quite a bit of protection. Lets be honest, when is the last time you remember seeing someone complain about being blown up by a cloaky in a pilgrim? Isnt it always cloaky hot drops that people complain about?

Cloaks should require fuel of some sort. That would leave their tactical uses in tact but also limit the invulnerability they provide.

TL;DR
Cloakers are not what people complain about, hot drops are the problem and cloakers are risk free hot drop machines.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2 - 2014-04-03 00:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
why?...just why?

edits-
there is a cyno discussion here btw

oh and here

also is this a rant? or an idea?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-04-03 00:04:21 UTC
days with out new cloaking tread: 0
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#4 - 2014-04-03 00:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Nucleus
EDIT: I failed to read. This has been rectified

Also, making cloaks use fuel or anything of the sort would be game breaking for wormhole space. Cloaking already doesn't allow the use of weapons, points, prop mods, or anything else that requires activation.

No trolling please
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#5 - 2014-04-03 00:25:47 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
After reading the OP, it's clear that the issue isn't cloaking at all. It sounds like you have an issue with cynos.


I agree - though no item in the game should offer any form of invulnerability.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#6 - 2014-04-03 00:28:14 UTC
Cloaking is risk free for all involved. The only enemy you have to fear is fear itself... and stupid playing.

A cloaker is unable to take any action except watch...

It is a great form of psychological warfare. But only if you let it get to you.

Fuel? Not necessary.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#7 - 2014-04-03 00:28:25 UTC
They aren't invulnerable though.They also suffer extreme penalities for the ability to cloak.

No trolling please
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#8 - 2014-04-03 00:29:46 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
EDIT: I failed to read. This has been rectified

Also, making cloaks use fuel or anything of the sort would be game breaking for wormhole space. Cloaking already doesn't allow the use of weapons, points, prop mods, or anything else that requires activation.


This. Bad idea is bad. Fuel as an approach in particular is terribad.

Risk free game play is sov null backwater mission running with Local and intel channels.

Go spend 3 months living in a C4-C6 wormhole and then post a new thread.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Rhavas
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#9 - 2014-04-03 00:33:13 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
]In WH space nobody complains about cloakers, and the proponents of risk free cloaking say this is because there is no local so the cloakers are not ever seen. I disagree, I believe nobody complains about cloakers in WH space because they know they never have to worry about the hot drop. Its actually viable to go ratting because you dont have to go ratting with a 250 man fleet to protect against the hot drop, ratting in groups of 3-4 actually provides you with quite a bit of protection.


LOL

3-4 people ratting is the perfect target. Warp in a pair of cloaky Proteus, grab whoever's not nailed down, warp 15 T3s in their face.

Close enough to a hotdrop.

Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#10 - 2014-04-03 00:40:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazumi Amaterasu
It's funny how any opponents of nerfing cloaks shout non-sense as their defense when there is no room left for legitimate debate. Cloaking has no counter. There should be a counter to every form of game play. There is no counter to cloaking.

As the post states, cloaking is unbalanced in that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#11 - 2014-04-03 00:54:27 UTC
Remove local, and nobody will know that AFK cloakers exist. Suddenly the whole problem is irrelevant.
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#12 - 2014-04-03 00:58:50 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Remove local, and nobody will know that AFK cloakers exist. Suddenly the whole problem is irrelevant.


Quote:
In WH space nobody complains about cloakers, and the proponents of risk free cloaking say this is because there is no local so the cloakers are not ever seen. I disagree, I believe nobody complains about cloakers in WH space because they know they never have to worry about the hot drop.
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-04-03 01:04:40 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It's funny how any opponents of nerfing cloaks shout non-sense as their defense when there is no room left for legitimate debate. Cloaking has no counter. There should be a counter to every form of game play. There is no counter to cloaking.

As the post states, cloaking is unbalanced in that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.


Because I said I would. Also, cloaking is a counter...why do we need a counter-counter? The problem you are describing is rampant force projection, not an inherent problem with cloaks. Cloaking exists in it's current form to allow the "risk-free" creation of things like bookmarks and the like, and also to allow someone to watch a target or even sneak up on them. Yes, hard as it is to believe, cloaking is supposed to let you get the drop on people. It's weird, because you acknowledge that there isn't a problem with AFK cloaking, and yet suggest a solution that one, breaks afk cloaking/long term intel gathering, and two, severely limits active cloak use in enemy space. It's as if you want cloaks to only be used for short term hiding in friendly territory where more fuel can be acquired.

Leave cloaks as is, let's fix force projection instead.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#14 - 2014-04-03 01:08:58 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It's funny how any opponents of nerfing cloaks shout non-sense as their defense when there is no room left for legitimate debate. Cloaking has no counter. There should be a counter to every form of game play. There is no counter to cloaking.

As the post states, cloaking is unbalanced in that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.



I've proposed a viable counter in other threads. Adding fuel to a cloaking ship is a nerf.
A counter would be a specialized ship like a new T2 Destroyer capable of approximating within 10-20 KM the location of a cloaked ship. It would be very effective to unmask people sitting cloaked and not moving since a single ship with drones out could eventually de-cloak it if it makes sweeps of the area. A non-covert ops cloak can only move so fast, so it too would be easily vulnerable to being decloaked. A Covert Ops ship could warp off grid, but the probing ship would be able to re-aquire the new location. A moving Covert-Ops ship with an AFK pilot could eventually be sussed out if the seekers are smart enough since subsequent probing for the ship will give the seekers a general idea of travel direction.

This would be a decent counter against AFK cloakers. Active scouts can easily avoid being de-cloaked, non-covert ops ships are vulnerable to being decloaked more readily so the pilot will have to chose wisely how they proceed.

Does not protect from cynos, does not protect from a fleet warp-in in WH space, does not protect you from paranoia. Instead it makes it easier for explorers in WH, low, or null who need a restroom break to be ganked.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#15 - 2014-04-03 01:09:39 UTC
Gigan Amilupar wrote:

Because I said I would. Also, cloaking is a counter...why do we need a counter-counter? The problem you are describing is rampant force projection, not an inherent problem with cloaks. Cloaking exists in it's current form to allow the "risk-free" creation of things like bookmarks and the like, and also to allow someone to watch a target or even sneak up on them. Yes, hard as it is to believe, cloaking is supposed to let you get the drop on people. It's weird, because you acknowledge that there isn't a problem with AFK cloaking, and yet suggest a solution that one, breaks afk cloaking/long term intel gathering, and two, severely limits active cloak use in enemy space. It's as if you want cloaks to only be used for short term hiding in friendly territory where more fuel can be acquired.

Leave cloaks as is, let's fix force projection instead.


Your argument is very true. Though, I do believe cloaking should suffer some sort of nerf. Gathering intel shouldn't be risk-free, again cloaking is over powered.
Johnson Dragoon
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-04-03 01:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnson Dragoon
I will now explain something. I will be blunt, but careful with your fragile understanding of cloaking.

A: Cloaking is not a risk free adventure. Cloaking is infact the reward for the risk you took getting into position, and being smart about one's positioning. The amount of risk one incurs flying a heavily nerf ship, that can hardly provide any combat abilities outside of it designated target. Example, Stealth bombers are design to hit slow moving targets/large fleets, they are not design to combat ships of it own size, or any kind of quick moving, small signature ship, like a frigate.

B: Cloaking outside of those covert ops ships, heavily nerfs one's targetting system, as soon as you decloak, you are now a sitting duck for a good full ten server cycles. Which for those that don't know. That is 10 seconds. This allows the defender to respond first, unless said defender is AFK.

C: Cloakers are highly valueable assets, which are easy to destroy. People say oh cov-ops can warp while cloaked! Constantly, they forget things that can not only force a cloaker to decloak, but the amount of stuff they CAN'T do while cloak. One of them is to activate a Cyno. As soon as someone uncloaks, that should be your cue to warp out and away, of course there are a few other things one can do. One of them is a counter hot-drop. Nothing will ruin a hot dropper's day, then finding their easy kill... Not so easy to kill. Infact, destroying just one hot-drop fleet... nine times out of ten, will stop future hot-drops from happening.

My final point I will now provide: Cloak is broken, I don't to contest that, however. Local is broken as well, thus Local and cloak, both being broken by nature, balances eachother. I know it a hard concept to understand and all, but if one studied, and used cloak. Actually set up a cloak operation will fully understand what that saying means.

Quote:
Your argument is very true. Though, I do believe cloaking should suffer some sort of nerf. Gathering intel shouldn't be risk-free, again cloaking is over powered.


Local by it very nature, is risk free intel.
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#17 - 2014-04-03 01:17:26 UTC
Johnson Dragoon wrote:
I will now explain something. I will be blunt, but careful with your fragile understanding of cloaking.

A: Cloaking is not a risk free adventure. Cloaking is infact the reward for the risk you took getting into position, and being smart about one's positioning. The amount of risk one incurs flying a heavily nerf ship, that can hardly provide any combat abilities outside of it designated target. Example, Stealth bombers are design to hit slow moving targets/large fleets, they are not design to combat ships of it own size, or any kind of quick moving, small signature ship, like a frigate.

B: Cloaking outside of those covert ops ships, heavily nerfs one's targetting system, as soon as you decloak, you are now a sitting duck for a good full ten server cycles. Which for those that don't know. That is 10 seconds. This allows the defender to respond first, unless said defender is AFK.

C: Cloakers are highly valueable assets, which are easy to destroy. People say oh cov-ops can warp while cloaked! Constantly, they forget things that can not only force a cloaker to decloak, but the amount of stuff they CAN'T do while cloak. One of them is to activate a Cyno. As soon as someone uncloaks, that should be your cue to warp out and away, of course there are a few other things one can do. One of them is a counter hot-drop. Nothing will ruin a hot dropper's day, then finding their easy kill... Not so easy to kill. Infact, destroying just one hot-drop fleet... nine times out of ten, will stop future hot-drops from happening.

My final point I will now provide: Cloak is broken, I don't to contest that, however. Local is broken as well, thus Local and cloak, both being broken by nature, balances eachother. I know it a hard concept to understand and all, but if one studied, and used cloak. Actually set up a cloak operation will fully understand what that saying means.

Quote:
Your argument is very true. Though, I do believe cloaking should suffer some sort of nerf. Gathering intel shouldn't be risk-free, again cloaking is over powered.


Local by it very nature, is risk free intel.


lol
Johnson Dragoon
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-04-03 01:44:25 UTC
I was thinking I would receive a... Intelligent response. On the topic, the fact that all I received was three letters smashed together showed that... I had a little too much hope for that end.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-04-03 01:47:00 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
There are several problems I have with the risk free cloaking system that we have now, and none of them have to do with AFK cloaking because you're right, it's stupid to be afraid of someone who isnt there.

It Makes You Completely Safe - You should never be completely safe in null sec. In fact I believe stations should be destructible for that very reason

Cloaked Ships Can Effect Fleets - Proponents of risk free cloaking will tell you that cloaked ships cant do anything to you, so they're perfectly justified in being safe. This would be a good argument if it were true, but it isnt. Cloaked ships can still use probes, directional scanners, local, and the overview to obtain fleet composition and location in system. Additionally they can provide warp-ins, safe spots and set up bookmarks, all of which are crucial and all of which are to be had risk free using cloaked ships

Every Cloaked Ship Represents A 250 Man Fleet - With the prevalence of titans and the low cost of bridging, you must assume that every cloaked ship has a titan with a fleet ready to pounce backing it up. If you're not ready to deal with that, then you're left hoping that he doesnt have backup, and hoping isnt a plan, hoping is what you do when a plan fails.

Cloaking Drastically Unbalances 0.0 - #1 and #3 make the parts of 0.0 that are not in jump range of low sec or NPC null sec orders of magnitude better than the parts that are. This also means that coalitions that control large swaths of space are better off because their members can go ratting in the middle of their space without fearing a hot drop. Take the system UJY-HE for example. Every system in jump range of that system is also in goon friendly hands, so you can confidently go ratting in a group of 4-5 knowing that even if he has a cyno he cant hot drop you.

In WH space nobody complains about cloakers, and the proponents of risk free cloaking say this is because there is no local so the cloakers are not ever seen. I disagree, I believe nobody complains about cloakers in WH space because they know they never have to worry about the hot drop. Its actually viable to go ratting because you dont have to go ratting with a 250 man fleet to protect against the hot drop, ratting in groups of 3-4 actually provides you with quite a bit of protection. Lets be honest, when is the last time you remember seeing someone complain about being blown up by a cloaky in a pilgrim? Isnt it always cloaky hot drops that people complain about?

Cloaks should require fuel of some sort. That would leave their tactical uses in tact but also limit the invulnerability they provide.

TL;DR
Cloakers are not what people complain about, hot drops are the problem and cloakers are risk free hot drop machines.

THE ONLY VALID arguement against cloaking is and ALWAYS will be it representing a 250-man fleet.

but nerfing cloaking will NOT fix this. since its just as easy to have a stabbed interceptor jumping around. If you want to fix THIS issue, NERF POWER PROJECTION. And not only would that seriosuly alleviate the "risk" of having an AFK cloaker in system, it would be a direct counter to an alliance's ability to take any SOV they want and defend it with omnipotence (though to truly allow a small group to be trouble, theyd have to get rid of POS attack notifications aswell)
Sigras
Conglomo
#20 - 2014-04-03 05:35:30 UTC
Rhavas wrote:
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
]In WH space nobody complains about cloakers, and the proponents of risk free cloaking say this is because there is no local so the cloakers are not ever seen. I disagree, I believe nobody complains about cloakers in WH space because they know they never have to worry about the hot drop. Its actually viable to go ratting because you dont have to go ratting with a 250 man fleet to protect against the hot drop, ratting in groups of 3-4 actually provides you with quite a bit of protection.


LOL

3-4 people ratting is the perfect target. Warp in a pair of cloaky Proteus, grab whoever's not nailed down, warp 15 T3s in their face.

Close enough to a hotdrop.

The difference is that doing this in WH space takes effort, and several dedicated main characters.

In null sec it only takes one alt who is partially looking at his screen some of the time, and several completely AFK people sitting risk free in a POS alt tabbed into their favorite Hulu show.

See the difference?
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