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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#161 - 2014-04-02 16:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcia en Welle
Spugg Galdon wrote:
The suggestion of an "Ammo Bay" or specialised hold specifically for mining crystals is actually a very good one.

I am also in the mind set that the only two useful Exhumers are the Skiff and the Mackinaw (and their T1 counterparts). The Hulk doesn't have enough of an advantage in m^3/min over the Mackinaw and it's tank is a little too weak. If the Hulk had the same Ore Hold as the Skiff and the tank of the Mackinaw and a 5-10% buff in m^3/min it would be appealing as a fleet option. Currently. It isn't!

Exactly. I'm using skiffs and procurers in all my mining fleets whether it be in null, low, or hs. This rebalance has actually made that even more desirable. For the extra yield, you are losing so much compared to the proc and skiff. Also if I am going to spend 200mil on a mining ship, then I don't want it to crumple like a paper bag as soon as the wind blows in the wrong direction, unless there is some significant bonus which makes that extra risk worthwhile.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#162 - 2014-04-02 16:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcia en Welle
Kenrailae wrote:
Please do put the mid back on the Procurer.


If you're worried about it having comparatively too many slots, then add a mid to the reti and low to the Cov.

But as the Procurer is designed to operate on it's own in more risky environments, it having an extra slot isn't out of balance. It DOES only have 1 high.

Proc is good enough, it can survive easily with the loss of a mid. All the extra things it is getting plus an extra mid would make it insanely op. If you want the extra mid then stop being cheap and upgrade it a skiff.

As is now there isn't enough benefit in upgrading from a proc to a skiff anyway, so CCP have offset that now by taking away the mid.
Shinnan Krydu
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2014-04-02 16:34:15 UTC
There is a reason why the large ore holds are popular. It's because below a certain number of barges/exhumers working together, it's a better return to take the hauler pilot out of the industrial and put all characters except the booster in a mining ship. At a certain point (I think it's somewhere around 10 pilots but there's way too many variables to chisel it in stone) it becomes more profitable to use the higher yield ships and run a hauler pilot back and forth. All these changes are going to do is reduce the number of mining barges in the fleet required before it's profitable to run the dedicated hauler.

From a nullsec miner perspective, I don't think this will result in a large migration into different ships. Even when bling fit, Hulks are just not tanky enough to use in nullsec, esp low truesec null, without dedicated support as well as dedicated haulers, and the people who run mining fleets of that size are already doing it. It may mean for smaller fleets and solo multiboxers of fewer accounts, the skiffs will start looking more attractive with a dedicated hauler. Of course, that probably explains the large spike in quantity of skiffs moved in Jita 2 DAYS before this blog was posted. CCP has always had an insider trading problem, it's just disgusting to see it displayed yet again.
Warmonger Murderalt
Shady Business Inc.
#164 - 2014-04-02 16:57:09 UTC
Shinnan Krydu wrote:
It may mean for smaller fleets and solo multiboxers of fewer accounts, the skiffs will start looking more attractive with a dedicated hauler. Of course, that probably explains the large spike in quantity of skiffs moved in Jita 2 DAYS before this blog was posted. CCP has always had an insider trading problem, it's just disgusting to see it displayed yet again.

Quoted for relevance. Seems to be the only really important points to bring up about the changes.
Kritan Sengal
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#165 - 2014-04-02 17:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kritan Sengal
Solo highsec miner checking in. Max mining skills. (T2 production alt for nullsec killer)

Looking at the changes, I think I will be shifting from a Mackinaw to a Skiff for hisec mining.

PROS:
- Same yield as a Mack
- Best Tank (by far)
- Uses one crystal vice two, so a cost savings over time.
- Ganking is much harder, so cost savings over time.
- Cheaper 128m vice 176m for mack (jita at time of post) I am sure that will change however.

CONS:
- Smaller ore bay.

I think I would probably change my mining tactics in that I would actually use Mining Drones instead of just throwing out a flight of lights to auto-attack. The skiff's tank should be fine against hisec rats. This would boost the mining yield past the Mack for my style of play.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#166 - 2014-04-02 17:47:07 UTC
Great changes Smile Woulda liked to have seen the Mack get a little cap love given its pretty much active tank or bust.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Smud Lax
Fellowship Of Lost Souls
#167 - 2014-04-02 17:48:47 UTC
Can you also look at survey scanners? 22,5km max range isnt really helping with the range you can get on the new hulks with max rorq boosts. Thanks!
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#168 - 2014-04-02 17:52:50 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Mining has become so irrelevant to most of us that we simply can't be bothered to comment.

That, and those of us who do mine (even for the sedative effect after putting the little one to bed for the third time in 4 hours) are so jaded by past experience that most have just given up.
Mazzara
Band of the Red Sun
#169 - 2014-04-02 18:26:52 UTC
Kelmurdoch wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
links, T3s and capitals go unnerfed while you're messing with barges


Quick! Someone plays differently than I do!

Burn them!


Don't you just love those kinda pilots!

I play an MMORPG and, the only problems are the issues I have and I expect them to be fixed yesterday and today, everyone else can wait till my problems are fixed. 
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use, you can't wash shame!
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2014-04-02 19:37:50 UTC
I guess I may as well throw my hat in with the people who think the hulk changes won't have any effect on the situation. The hulk is too stingy on fittings to be sturdy enough for 0.0 mining, even with max skills. Once you start talking about warping out of the belt or dropping a yield mod for more tank/fittings you may as well fly one of the other exhumers.

As it stand the hulk is just sad, and none of these changes address the root problem.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2014-04-02 19:48:58 UTC
I am 50/50 on these changes, but like many others have said, if you are going to make them, at least increase the range of survey scanners to make things relevant.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2014-04-02 19:57:50 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Please do put the mid back on the Procurer.


If you're worried about it having comparatively too many slots, then add a mid to the reti and low to the Cov.

But as the Procurer is designed to operate on it's own in more risky environments, it having an extra slot isn't out of balance. It DOES only have 1 high.

Proc is good enough, it can survive easily with the loss of a mid. All the extra things it is getting plus an extra mid would make it insanely op. If you want the extra mid then stop being cheap and upgrade it a skiff.

As is now there isn't enough benefit in upgrading from a proc to a skiff anyway, so CCP have offset that now by taking away the mid.




Nah... it needs all four mids. It really doesn't need another low. It's a barge... it really can't be insanely OP, especially when a mid doesn't increase yield. 4 mids allow for some very creative uses though, where 3 mids really hurts that. There is still no reason to own a skiff with these changes.

Too expensive to use in low sec, too crappy to use in high sec comparatively. The Procurer with 4 mids at least has alot of creative uses to go with its standard uses.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2014-04-02 20:26:28 UTC
As someone who flies the Skiff almost exclusively, I am very happy with this change. The addition of the range bonus on the hulk is also a great idea to make it more powerful without giving it direct yield, and thus lowering mineral prices. I've said since the beginning that the benefits of the hulk don't outweigh the costs. This doesn't solve that completely, but it is a big help.

Nice work as usual CCP.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#174 - 2014-04-02 21:03:14 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.


And yet the people who actually mine switched to the Mackinaw pretty much overnight. I wonder if anyone on the ship rebalancing team mines for their ISK?

Switching from yield to cycle time is awesome for hi sec miners, since most asteroids contain between 2.1 and 3.1 cycles of a max yield Strip Miner I. Now we'll waste fewer cycles, improving ISK/hr.

The Hulk could use a bit of a hand in terms of PG and CPU in order to be able to fit T2 hardeners. As it stands you have to fit a high-meta T1 tank or do foolish things such as use faction tank modules (which just make your mining ship that much more attractive as a gank target). Upgrading the Hulk to 45PG (+15) and 330CPU (+30) would be a great start. Every combat ship can fit a T2 tank and T1 weapons, and most of them can also fit a MWD without having to use MAPC or Reactor Control modules.

Despite the higher theoretical maximum yield of the Hulk (which advantage is being closed somewhat by this rebalance), I'll still be using Skiffs for fleet mining operations simply because it is so much faster, aligns quicker, has a far better buffer tank, and can do all that while still fit for maximum yield. To put a tank on the Hulk, you sacrifice MLUs for MAPCs. This puts the Hulk's yield below the Skiff. The only advantage the Hulk still has is range, but the 25% extra range translates to about 8km, which the Skiff can cover using its superior range before it's finished mining out the rocks that were previously in range.

Although the Hulk gets a bonus to speed so that it can conceivable "speed tank" those catalysts or MWD stabbers, a Hulk pilot still has to make compromises that Skiff and Mackinaw pilots are not asked to make: that is, the pilot has to choose to either fit for tank or yield. The Skiff and Mackinaw can do both. As such, the Skiff is still the superior fleet mining vessel (and that advantage is being reinforced due to the yield boost it is receiving compared to the Hulk's yield nerf).

And thanks for the extra CPU on the Skiff meaning I can upgrade from F-S9 to T2 shield extenders for even more tank while still having better yield than the Hulk thanks to 3 x MLU II (while the Hulk will be fitting a DC2 and bulkheads in order to not be one-shot by a solo catalyst).

What role was the Hulk supposed to fill? I can imagine it being useful for deep blue null sec where you can see neutrals enter system before the neutrals know they're there.

Yet another stealth null sec buff :P


The Hulk's role is maximizing yield for an active player that takes steps to protect themselves from other players. In that role it is the single best available choice.

Even in highsec there are a large number of belts where noone (other than blues) will be on a 14 AU D-scan. Those will be the places Hulks can be safely fielded (in fleets alongside an Orca and maybe freighters).

Of course people will get greedy and try to use them in silly places, such as 0.5 ice anomolies in systems with 5-6 characters in local with -10 sec status. Those people will lose their hulks, and those losses will stimulate the economy.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Torg Rann
Tor Industrials
#175 - 2014-04-02 21:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Torg Rann
Hulk changes:

PG: 140
CPU: 400
+1 mid slot
+1 low slot (+2 would be better)

Ore hold to 11,000 (hold 2 cycles of ore)
cargo hold 600 m3 (more crystals)
change jet can ejection timer to 90 seconds, or just bump up ore hold. Current approach means can't drop can when using mobile tractor units.

The PG, CPU, slot changes will allow pilots to have more options to fit the ship according to their skills. A pilot with all 5 fitting skills should be able to see what can be fit with the proposed changes. Todays pilots with lower fitting skills have a very difficult time fitting a hulk. Which is why you see ships with cargo, ship, and survey scanners in the mids - what a waste.

Two additional low slots would make for a more interesting set of fits. mining link upgrades, damage controls, warp core stabilizers, nanofiber internal structures ... the list goes on.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#176 - 2014-04-02 21:11:44 UTC
We can't post images in this forum, so bear with me.

YIELD ON THE MACK

[RENT DAMN HIGH MEME GUY]

IS TOO DAMN HIGH


As David Stark has highlighted, the gap in yield between the batlleship-tank Procurer/Skiff, the too-damn-AFK-friendly Retriever/Mack versus the paper-thin gotta-watch-it-like-a-hawk-because-the-ore-hold-is-so-small Hulk is too small to justify the difference in effort required. You guys even addressed this in the first post: ISK/effort is the name of the game in mining.

The Retriever/Mackinaw should be the lowest yield of the three, since it has the benefit of being "AFK friendly". If you want to mine AFK, you get the lowest reward.

As it stands, the assumption of "all-bar-1 lows are MLUs" is clearly a special favour to null sec where miners aren't so concerned about suicide ganking, and have enough warning of incoming enemies that they can warp out before being blown up.

Please focus on giving null sec industry an equal footing with hi sec industry before you go buffing it too much. Remember the wisdom of Donald Knuth: premature optimisation is the root of all evil.

The balance that null sec industry needs is easy access to facilities, in the form of switching everyone to player-owned facilities and providing gentle economic pressure to abandon NPC facilities. Nullsec really doesn't need the best refineries, they just need accessible refineries. They don't need the best mining ships, they just need to be able to do mining. Moving ore sites back to grav sites (and further, moving static belts to anomalies) would be a far more significant value to null sec than the stealth buff of making the Hulk only usable in null sec fleets.

But then this is CCP, where every rebalance is achieved with a sledgehammer.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#177 - 2014-04-02 21:14:42 UTC
Mostly good changes except for the proc mid slot change, I fit procurers for tank not yield, which was their intended function. The covertor/hulk needs some love. How about making them battle cruiser in size and allowing them to fit warfare links whilst mining, it would be a good stepping stone to an orca.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Dave stark
#178 - 2014-04-02 21:48:37 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about making them battle cruiser in size and allowing them to fit warfare links whilst mining, it would be a good stepping stone to an orca.


because any additional high slot would just be filled with a strip miner.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#179 - 2014-04-02 22:01:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about making them battle cruiser in size and allowing them to fit warfare links whilst mining, it would be a good stepping stone to an orca.


because any additional high slot would just be filled with a strip miner.


Make strip miners turrets, add hardpoints, specify strip miners to barges and exhumers only, problem solved.
Murl
The Buffet Assault Group
#180 - 2014-04-02 22:38:43 UTC
Just to tag onto what has already been said about the hulk...

1) Bigger cargo bay or smaller crystal size...you just don't have room for enough crystals sometimes, and having extras sitting in an orca 30km away doesn't help much.

2) A lil more CPU/PG for a tank. I don't think it would take much....10-15 of each would work.