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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Dave Stark
#101 - 2014-04-01 21:28:24 UTC
Maennas Vaer wrote:
If the Hulk/Covetor are getting optimal range bonuses, please, please, PLEASE fix the gimped range on the survey scanner!


fit it to your orca; et voila!
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#102 - 2014-04-01 21:31:53 UTC
I have 3 skiffs. And now I will definitely be keeping them. I really like the drone bay/damage bonses. I'm not even sure to what to do with the extra 25m3 after put in hammerheads and warriers. Salvage drones maybe? Maybe I'll rat with them too...
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-04-01 21:34:39 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
what's a skiff cost point-wise in the alliance tournament


You sir earned my first goon post like

lmao. +1
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2014-04-01 21:37:31 UTC
*looking for Starry eyed emoticon*


Dat Procurer ShockedShockedShocked


<- is in Love with a barge

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2014-04-01 21:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Quick question, is the 150% bonus to mining yeild and the 60% reduction in ice harvester duration intentional on the skiff? on TQ its 200% anmd 66.7% respectively

e: also is adding two 2% reduction to ice harvesters bonus an addition? it wasnt mentioned in the OP or highlighted in any way
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#106 - 2014-04-01 21:53:37 UTC
Mira Taras wrote:
Tharin Malkyre wrote:
Skiffs will blot out the suns.

Then we will mine in the shade!!! LolLolLol

QFT! Big smile

I tend to agree with the changes to the Mack and the Skiff. If my math is not completely off, and it well may be, then the new Skiff will mine slightly more than the new Mack, yet still slightly less than the current Mack. This would turn the Skiff to my fleet miner of choice, while the Mack will remain the solo miner's choice.

However I have a feeling there is something amiss with the reasoning behind these changes. I would still not use the Hulk once these changes goes live, not even in a fleet with Orca and hauler support, and I suspect many people have various reasons similar to mine not to do so either.

1) People in mining fleets very frequently tend to multi-box. For instance I usually pilot 3 ships at once while mining. Combine this with my slight OCD personality, and micro-managing the three lasers on a Hulk (cutting the cycles short) is more trouble than the mining bonus over a Mack/Skiff is worth.

2) The 8500 m3 ore bay on the Hulk is ever so slightly too small if you multi-box. While there is room for ore from a bit more than two cycles (assuming full Orca bonus and implants), I still tend to miss emptying the ore bay once in a while, thus wasting ore. Having the ore bay on the Hulk made just slightly larger would actually help a great deal here. Maybe just 10k or 12k m3…?

3) The fitting on the Hulk is desperately cramped, CPU in particular. Even with maxed out fitting skills, you still cannot fit reasonably priced tanking modules in all the slots you have for them. The result is that even with maxed out skills on fleet booster *and* Hulk pilot, you can barely reach an EHP high enough to deter a single, bored Catalyst ganker. It doesn't help that the Hulk is the most expensive Exhumer.

The Mack is a bit better in this regard, reaching an EHP which will frequently require at least two gankers.

4) Lack of space for multiple sets of mining crystals on the Hulk. This, as well as point 3), was mentioned previously in the thread.



…and +1 to doing something to at the very least the range of the survey scanners, pretty please!

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#107 - 2014-04-01 22:02:44 UTC
"Barge Yield With MLUs" column applied to Hulk made me laugh.

It is too expensive of a ship to not tank. Covetor is more sensible.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-04-01 22:07:43 UTC

i assume that ccp is not trolling with this one
i personally dont like these changes especially with summer reprocessing. means the mineral prices will be interesting after the stocks empty out.

for the exhumers i always wondered why the tank on the mack is better with the same tank mods as on a hulk. As in my opinion it should be equal.

Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:

3) The fitting on the Hulk is desperately cramped, CPU in particular. Even with maxed out fitting skills, you still cannot fit reasonably priced tanking modules in all the slots you have for them. The result is that even with maxed out skills on fleet booster *and* Hulk pilot, you can barely reach an EHP high enough to deter a single, bored Catalyst ganker. It doesn't help that the Hulk is the most expensive Exhumer.

The Mack is a bit better in this regard, reaching an EHP which will frequently require at least two gankers.

hmm why not just properly tank fit ok even than a mack gets more. But said fit needs atleast 3 cats to die in .5 probably 4

[Hulk, Hulk: Passive HighSec Miner]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Veldspar Mining Crystal II)

Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Upgraded Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#109 - 2014-04-01 22:21:31 UTC
I like the thought behind the changes, but they will still leave the Hulk playing the role of ugly duckling.

Mining is pretty much a passive activity in the game. It is done for some ISK during times when the player can't dedicate full attention to highly active things like PvP and PvE. I am sure it is in every game. Its pretty much a fact of life and dangling the carrot of super high yeild is nowhere near enough to coax players into actively mining because they have to jet can every one or two cycles.

I'm completely lazy. I had Hulks but the constant jet canning was too much a pain. So, now I have two Mackinaws; one fitted for rocks and one for ice. The Hulk could have quadruple the yeild of the Mackinaw and I still wouldnt bother with it.

Slide the Hulk's ore capacity to that of the Skiff and bump the skiff a little.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Vhelnik Cojoin
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#110 - 2014-04-01 22:30:08 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

hmm why not just properly tank fit ok even than a mack gets more. But said fit needs atleast 3 cats to die in .5 probably 4

For me personally I would choose the new Skiff over your fit any day, because:

*) New Skiff with 3x T2 MLUs *and survey scanner* will have twice the EHP of your fully tanked Hulk fit.
*) A Skiff cost less than a Hulk.
*) New Skiff with 3x T2 MLU will mine virtually the same as a Hulk without MLUs, especially once you consider mining drones.
*) Skiff only has one mining laser to micro-manage.
*) Skiff has nearly twice the ore bay, making it easier to manage for us multi-boxers.

Have you Communicated with your fellow capsuleers today? It is good for the EvE-oconomy and o-kay for you.
AnarConn
Hypnotic Anarchy
Fraternity.
#111 - 2014-04-01 23:43:13 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Really can't say I'm a fan at all. I'm operating under the assumption that these are actual changes just posted with excessively poor timing, since they don't seem to be inflammatory enough to be a April Fool's Day troll.

I'm in support of buffing the Hulk, but since you are planning on bundling these changes with the summer indy prepossessing changes that will result in a substantial drop in refined minerals, I really don't think it's a good idea to bundle in changes that result in a significant yield drop in the typical mining vessel of the vast majority of players.

Increased losses to refining coupled with a lower incoming stream of minerals = higher prices on already very high mineral costs.

Then we factor in the reason that so many people use the retriever and mackinaw is because mining is boring as hell.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.

You really should have expected it. Mining is the least engaging activity in the game by most peoples opinions. To have expected much diversity other than the least effort and time spent to do a fundamentally flawed and boring activity was silly.

Nothing is going to change. The micromanagement needed to fly a hulk is still going to be far too much effort for most people when you are talking peanuts of income, and needing to jetcan out the mined ore literally ever other cycle. All you did was reduce the yield of the people in retrievers, without offering any significant reason to shift to the annoying to fly Hulk. Especially since they are still massive gank magnets in highsec.

Lead with a carrot CCP, not a stick.

Weaselior wrote:
you mean the changes that do no such thing? the ones that keep the yield of highsec mining exactly the same as before?

Anhenka wrote:
Can you or I refine at equal or higher %'s postpatch? Sure. Will there be a significant number of people refining at a lower yield than current? I think so.



i agree totaly, ccp is makign a bad situation worse, and lets not even get into the flawed mexallon situation that still is unchanged, does ccp really love hs miners that much? situation is gettin to the breaking point of where i bother to resub, get a grip ccp, every change u proposed to indy lately have been nothing but nerfs... ENOUGH already!
AnarConn
Hypnotic Anarchy
Fraternity.
#112 - 2014-04-01 23:51:01 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

i assume that ccp is not trolling with this one
i personally dont like these changes especially with summer reprocessing. means the mineral prices will be interesting after the stocks empty out.

for the exhumers i always wondered why the tank on the mack is better with the same tank mods as on a hulk. As in my opinion it should be equal.

Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:

3) The fitting on the Hulk is desperately cramped, CPU in particular. Even with maxed out fitting skills, you still cannot fit reasonably priced tanking modules in all the slots you have for them. The result is that even with maxed out skills on fleet booster *and* Hulk pilot, you can barely reach an EHP high enough to deter a single, bored Catalyst ganker. It doesn't help that the Hulk is the most expensive Exhumer.

The Mack is a bit better in this regard, reaching an EHP which will frequently require at least two gankers.

hmm why not just properly tank fit ok even than a mack gets more. But said fit needs atleast 3 cats to die in .5 probably 4

[Hulk, Hulk: Passive HighSec Miner]

3x Modulated Strip Miner II (Veldspar Mining Crystal II)

Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Upgraded Thermic Dissipation Amplifier I

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


ur clearly not a miner, ud be bored silly after the 2nd cycle, pvpers would warp to u only to find u in ur pod already cuz u fall asleep from longass cycle and hardly any yield and/or started the selfdestruct to spice up ur boring mining excistance
SYNOGEN
SYNOGEN'S
#113 - 2014-04-01 23:52:34 UTC
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! AWESOMESAUCE!!!!! Thank you CCP!!! But what about my venture?
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#114 - 2014-04-01 23:58:31 UTC
AnarConn wrote:

, and lets not even get into the flawed mexallon situation that still is unchanged,


Explain what you mean here. I am not familiar with the issue.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#115 - 2014-04-02 00:00:34 UTC
More options for miners to fight back against people like me, if they ever stop watching Game of Thrones long enough to do so.

I'm now imagining people running level 3 security missions in Skiffs, and mining all the asteroids in the mission as they go.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#116 - 2014-04-02 00:03:02 UTC
After reading a few more posts, I agree that the proposal will change nothing.

The Hulk is still a waste of 200+ Million ISK. It is just too fragile, and its yield doesn't justify using one. The ore hold is too small, and the cargohold doesn't hold enough crystals.

Using Covetors is more economical, especially with replacement of about 7x over a Hulk.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#117 - 2014-04-02 00:22:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

In practice we underestimated the value that players would put in the isk/effort advantage of the Retriever and the Mackinaw, leading to a less diverse mining landscape than we would have liked.


And yet the people who actually mine switched to the Mackinaw pretty much overnight. I wonder if anyone on the ship rebalancing team mines for their ISK?

Switching from yield to cycle time is awesome for hi sec miners, since most asteroids contain between 2.1 and 3.1 cycles of a max yield Strip Miner I. Now we'll waste fewer cycles, improving ISK/hr.

The Hulk could use a bit of a hand in terms of PG and CPU in order to be able to fit T2 hardeners. As it stands you have to fit a high-meta T1 tank or do foolish things such as use faction tank modules (which just make your mining ship that much more attractive as a gank target). Upgrading the Hulk to 45PG (+15) and 330CPU (+30) would be a great start. Every combat ship can fit a T2 tank and T1 weapons, and most of them can also fit a MWD without having to use MAPC or Reactor Control modules.

Despite the higher theoretical maximum yield of the Hulk (which advantage is being closed somewhat by this rebalance), I'll still be using Skiffs for fleet mining operations simply because it is so much faster, aligns quicker, has a far better buffer tank, and can do all that while still fit for maximum yield. To put a tank on the Hulk, you sacrifice MLUs for MAPCs. This puts the Hulk's yield below the Skiff. The only advantage the Hulk still has is range, but the 25% extra range translates to about 8km, which the Skiff can cover using its superior range before it's finished mining out the rocks that were previously in range.

Although the Hulk gets a bonus to speed so that it can conceivable "speed tank" those catalysts or MWD stabbers, a Hulk pilot still has to make compromises that Skiff and Mackinaw pilots are not asked to make: that is, the pilot has to choose to either fit for tank or yield. The Skiff and Mackinaw can do both. As such, the Skiff is still the superior fleet mining vessel (and that advantage is being reinforced due to the yield boost it is receiving compared to the Hulk's yield nerf).

And thanks for the extra CPU on the Skiff meaning I can upgrade from F-S9 to T2 shield extenders for even more tank while still having better yield than the Hulk thanks to 3 x MLU II (while the Hulk will be fitting a DC2 and bulkheads in order to not be one-shot by a solo catalyst).

What role was the Hulk supposed to fill? I can imagine it being useful for deep blue null sec where you can see neutrals enter system before the neutrals know they're there.

Yet another stealth null sec buff :P

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Slumber
Cellular Vigour
#118 - 2014-04-02 00:26:50 UTC
This has got to be the absolutely best update in the last ten years!

AHARM Recruiter
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#119 - 2014-04-02 00:26:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
"Barge Yield With MLUs" column applied to Hulk made me laugh.

It is too expensive of a ship to not tank. Covetor is more sensible.


Eventually the ship balancing team might actually try mining. Maybe even on Tranquility (preferably in systems policed by CODE). Then they might understand the issues.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#120 - 2014-04-02 00:27:49 UTC
Slumber wrote:
This has got to be the absolutely best update in the last ten years!


What use does AHARM have for cyno procurers? Lol

Day 0 Advice for New Players