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PI Taxes?

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Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#241 - 2011-11-30 19:54:53 UTC
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#242 - 2011-11-30 19:58:09 UTC
Linka Romanov wrote:

You just said it yourself: there is a benefit to owning your own POCO, because you can give yourself and your corporation favorable tax rates. This means there is now a benefit to owning space, because it gives you a competitive advantage against users who have to pay CONCORD taxes in highsec. This drives conflict, and introduces a new "Landlord" playstyle that didn't exist previously.

It sounds like you mostly live in a wormhole, meaning the tax change will impact you even less than the vast majority of players, because it's very unlikely someone is going to be bothered to get together a fleet, probe out your hole, reinforce your POCO, sit around for 24 hours+, and then nuke it after reinforced. This allows you to effectively get your PI goods 10% or more cheaper than the rest of the player base, because you can set your own taxes to 0%, providing you with a sizeable discount to your POS costs.

The fact that you are so bothered by the new taxes means that the developers have done an adequate job of incentivizing the use of the new POCOs. If taxes were the pittance they were previously, no one would bother with the hassle of setting up a POCO, and we would have a shallower game as a result.


The "benefit" is forced. It's an illusion of a benefit simply because it's the only way around the now exhorborant taxes for PI importing/exporting that Nullabor, in his infinite "wisdom", crammed down the communities throats to push an idea that he's to emotionally attached to to realize it actually adds nothing to the game. The problem is that if you don't use one of these contraptions on every planet in your hole you're now being penalized... and to put one up you're being penalized heavily in a front-loaded fashion. You're right and you're wrong... in wormholes the tax change right now has a huge effect, costs are through the roof on exports/imports, but once the contraptions are up the tax rate will be set to zero so we'll basically see no gain whatsoever. When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.

I'd argue the PCOs make it a shallower game by forcing a useless expense on players that will ultimate drive up costs, reduce low sec PvP and eventually become an annoyance item offering little to no benefits unless you're the mega-alliance type that can force your underlings to use them at the tax rate you determine.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jita Alt666
#243 - 2011-11-30 20:03:44 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Linka Romanov wrote:

You just said it yourself: there is a benefit to owning your own POCO, because you can give yourself and your corporation favorable tax rates. This means there is now a benefit to owning space, because it gives you a competitive advantage against users who have to pay CONCORD taxes in highsec. This drives conflict, and introduces a new "Landlord" playstyle that didn't exist previously.

It sounds like you mostly live in a wormhole, meaning the tax change will impact you even less than the vast majority of players, because it's very unlikely someone is going to be bothered to get together a fleet, probe out your hole, reinforce your POCO, sit around for 24 hours+, and then nuke it after reinforced. This allows you to effectively get your PI goods 10% or more cheaper than the rest of the player base, because you can set your own taxes to 0%, providing you with a sizeable discount to your POS costs.

The fact that you are so bothered by the new taxes means that the developers have done an adequate job of incentivizing the use of the new POCOs. If taxes were the pittance they were previously, no one would bother with the hassle of setting up a POCO, and we would have a shallower game as a result.


The "benefit" is forced. It's an illusion of a benefit simply because it's the only way around the now exhorborant taxes for PI importing/exporting that Nullabor, in his infinite "wisdom", crammed down the communities throats to push an idea that he's to emotionally attached to to realize it actually adds nothing to the game. The problem is that if you don't use one of these contraptions on every planet in your hole you're now being penalized... and to put one up you're being penalized heavily in a front-loaded fashion. You're right and you're wrong... in wormholes the tax change right now has a huge effect, costs are through the roof on exports/imports, but once the contraptions are up the tax rate will be set to zero so we'll basically see no gain whatsoever. When you consider the taxes we were paying before the expansion it'll be a significant number of months before the tax savings (old rates) pay for the added expenses of the PCOs. Wormholes are impacted amongst the most simply because they receive no actual benefits to them at all.

I'd argue the PCOs make it a shallower game by forcing a useless expense on players that will ultimate drive up costs, reduce low sec PvP and eventually become an annoyance item offering little to no benefits unless you're the mega-alliance type that can force your underlings to use them at the tax rate you determine.


A layer of middle management has been added and now users either side will lose a small amount of margins.
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#244 - 2011-11-30 20:04:09 UTC
Yes Ingvar your hole got nerfed. We get it. But IMO there shouldn't be any COs in holes until a player builds it. WHs are supposed to be unexplored space not non sov null sec you live in.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#245 - 2011-11-30 20:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#246 - 2011-11-30 20:12:41 UTC
POCOs are the turd that overshadows all the nice things that came with Crucible. the POCO changes are UTTER AND COMPLETE GARBAGE.

unless.. *has an idea.. messages nullrabor with it*

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#247 - 2011-11-30 20:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.


That works both ways. Smile

POCO's serve as shiney lures all over space to draw in people trying to pop them.

Not that they appear to be very effective at that... so far custom offices of all types appear to be largely ignored.

Has anyone spotted the predicted mass extermination of these things yet?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#248 - 2011-11-30 20:31:46 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.


That works both ways. Smile

POCO's serve as shiney lures all over space to draw in people trying to pop them.

Not that they appear to be very effective at that... so far custom offices of all types appear to be largely ignored.

Has anyone spotted the predicted mass extermination of these things yet?


Don't know about empire space, but I already have a couple gantries in the hole with the upgrade materials so we'll be putting these overpriced Interbus pieces of crap out of our misery soon enough. Then of course the tax rate will be zero for corp and alliance to avoid CCP continuing to screw us on the taxes, which means it'll be months before we save enough in taxes (compared to the old rates) for these to even be worth it.

Wasted isk, that's all it is. Wasted isk.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#249 - 2011-11-30 21:12:51 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.


That works both ways. Smile

POCO's serve as shiney lures all over space to draw in people trying to pop them.

Not that they appear to be very effective at that... so far custom offices of all types appear to be largely ignored.

Has anyone spotted the predicted mass extermination of these things yet?


Don't know about empire space, but I already have a couple gantries in the hole with the upgrade materials so we'll be putting these overpriced Interbus pieces of crap out of our misery soon enough. Then of course the tax rate will be zero for corp and alliance to avoid CCP continuing to screw us on the taxes, which means it'll be months before we save enough in taxes (compared to the old rates) for these to even be worth it.

Wasted isk, that's all it is. Wasted isk.



Personally I'd make the tax rate comparable to Empire until the POCO has paid for itself, then reduce the tax to zero if you prefer. Or use it as an additional modest revenue stream for your corp.

Remember CCP isn't screwing you on taxes when you pay them to yourself. In fact, the higher tax rate in Empire (and the corresponding increase in market prices to compensate) means you will actually be making (saving) more money than ever before compared to everyone else.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#250 - 2011-11-30 21:53:35 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.

I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.

If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.

This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.

This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


C'mon, who you kidding? You really expect us to buy this line of crap? How many of these mythical defense fleets do you expect to lose to a larger force that jumped you when you took the bait of your PCO being attacked before people decide it's not worth it? How many PCOs do you think you'll lose before you realize it's not worth it? How many times do you think you can mobilize your alliance to defend one of your structures that you put up in what, low sec? that only benefits your corp wallet before they decide it's not worth defending your structure?

Seriously now, think about it. PCOs are bait for you to bite into and die on the hook of. Anyone in low that's seriously looking to blow some ships simply needs to have a small force start attacking the PCO, wait for you all to arrive then send the large force in to eradicate you.

Even if you're particular alliance manages to pull it off once or twice, how many others will find it worthwhile, be able to muster enough people willing to lose their ships to PCO traps before they give up?

Seriuosly. You're either deluding yourself or trying to delude others.


That works both ways. Smile

POCO's serve as shiney lures all over space to draw in people trying to pop them.

Not that they appear to be very effective at that... so far custom offices of all types appear to be largely ignored.

Has anyone spotted the predicted mass extermination of these things yet?


Don't know about empire space, but I already have a couple gantries in the hole with the upgrade materials so we'll be putting these overpriced Interbus pieces of crap out of our misery soon enough. Then of course the tax rate will be zero for corp and alliance to avoid CCP continuing to screw us on the taxes, which means it'll be months before we save enough in taxes (compared to the old rates) for these to even be worth it.

Wasted isk, that's all it is. Wasted isk.



Personally I'd make the tax rate comparable to Empire until the POCO has paid for itself, then reduce the tax to zero if you prefer. Or use it as an additional modest revenue stream for your corp.

Remember CCP isn't screwing you on taxes when you pay them to yourself. In fact, the higher tax rate in Empire (and the corresponding increase in market prices to compensate) means you will actually be making (saving) more money than ever before compared to everyone else.


This. Saving money IS making money. Even in a wormhole, cut off from everything else... if you're able to pay less for your fuel than you would normally have to pay for buying the stuff off the market, because all the prices have gone up, because of the tax, which you don't pay because you've replaced your customs offices, then you're still ahead.
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
#251 - 2011-11-30 22:46:29 UTC
Cloora wrote:
This is why all you carebears need to enjoy PvP also to understand why this is a good change.


Your Idea of PVP is 20 vs. 1.

Cloora wrote:
I am a HUGE carebear but love PvP. I just bought a POCO for 120 million and all the upgrade components. I now get to shoot down an Interbus CO with my Alliance exposing us to potential PvP and risk. Then I get to set up our own POCO and we have to defend it exposing us to more potential conflict. THEN I get to set the taxes to my friends and enemies and potentially **** someone off and maybe get more PvP out of this! And if I set up my POCO at a well used planet I will get some extra income to pay for the potential risk. And I get my PI mats off planet for free.


Yes this is great for Alliances who can muster blobs, so all of the rest of us Non-Alliance carebears are now forced to play your way?

Cloora wrote:
If high sec ones were cheap then no one would bother with low sec.


Taxes are lower in high sec than in low.

Cloora wrote:
This was a needed buff to low sec and PvP and all you whiners need to quit EvE and go farm in LOTRO instead.


Please explain this to the people who CCP laid off because they didn't listen to the player base. KOTOR is in Beta right now I hear.

Cloora wrote:
This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


All CCP is saying is that the special interests own the sandbox and the rest of us don’t like it we can choke on the sand.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#252 - 2011-11-30 23:00:59 UTC
Denidil wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice


did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?


It will utterly destroy the economy. Much like the introduction of NPC corp taxes did. (I do miss those threadnaughts).

Wait...What's that I hear? EVE didn't collapse? The economy muddled through just fine?

I guess all you doom and gloomers have your answer, then.

HTFU, yo!

Mr Epeen Cool
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2011-11-30 23:02:02 UTC
Lone Gunman wrote:
Yes this is great for Alliances who can muster blobs, so all of the rest of us Non-Alliance carebears are now forced to play your way?

What constitutes "a blob"?

Cloora wrote:
KOTOR is in Beta right now I hear.

Not really, since KOTOR was released in 2003. I think you mean SW:TOR.Big smile

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2011-11-30 23:03:14 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Denidil wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice


did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?


It will utterly destroy the economy. Much like the introduction of NPC corp taxes did. (I do miss those threadnaughts).

Wait...What's that I hear? EVE didn't collapse? The economy muddled through just fine?

I guess all you doom and gloomers have your answer, then.

HTFU, yo!

Mr Epeen Cool


You play the game as CCP presents it; doesn't mean it isn't wrong. It will take a lot more than this for eve to "collapse" but this is a damn good start...
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2011-11-30 23:04:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Not really, since KOTOR was released in 2003. I think you mean SW:TOR.Big smile


Comes out on 12/20 or earlier if you preordered.
Blood Fart
Rock Hard Productions
#256 - 2011-11-30 23:10:42 UTC
Denidil wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Confirming that the base prices were adjusted as well as default tax rates for Concord and Interbus customs offices. The latest and best information is available here:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice


did you ever stop to think what this is going to do to the economy?



The economy is controlled by the players....so are the customs offices now. Good.
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#257 - 2011-11-30 23:22:45 UTC
Lone Gunman wrote:


Your Idea of PVP is 20 to 1


Go check my alliance out on BC carebear. I'm in a small alliance that gets in small gang fight in low sec.

Quote:


Yes this is great for Alliances who can muster blobs, so all of the rest of us Non-Alliance carebears are now forced to play your way?


Answered above twit.

Quote:


Taxes are lower in low sec then high sec


Not if it is your POCO in low sec duh

Quote:

Please explain this to the people who CCP laid off because they didn't listen to the player base.


You does not equal the playerbase. You are a whiney minority.

Cloora wrote:
This is the best change of the patch and adds more sand to the sandbox.


All CCP is saying is that the special interests own the sandbox and the rest of us don’t like it we can choke on the sand.
[/quote]

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2011-11-30 23:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jim Hooknose
Cloora wrote:
You does not equal the playerbase. You are a whiney minority.


I also think the PI changes are insane and consider this a slap in the face to W-space and empire dwellers alike.
Endeavour Starfleet
#259 - 2011-11-30 23:43:42 UTC
Confirming glad to see that Ingvar's "hole" got temp nerfed and that in my opinion he is whining close to that of the pirates when CONCORD got buffed.

And VERY VERY VERY glad to say to you for once.

WORKING AS INTENDED!

See you once they implement cloaking changes! Big smile
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#260 - 2011-12-01 00:10:55 UTC
This is the summary:

In hi sec: Increase end product prices 35 - 40% and carry on like you used to.
In low: Have fun trying to keep your CO alive to make much better profit than in hi sec.
In null: Enjoy the huge price bump and new level of epic profits you're going to make.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest