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A Pirate high DPS Missile boat

First post
Author
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#21 - 2014-03-31 06:19:09 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Yet gun ships use t2 ammo no problem.



This is flat out incorrect. T2 short range ammo for guns is mostly useless. The tracking and range is so bad it is useless on small guns and midly terrible on mediums and larges.




Its not as bad as you claim, I assure you. Also ever use rage torps on a non moving drake? Its hundreds of damage less per shot even with the use of a stealth bomber as compare to faction. Dont even try it with a torp Battleship,

In fact HAM's you cant even hit another cruiser standing still without reduced damage and its a cruiser weapon.
Rockets require dual webs to be fully effective on another frig. Lets not even get into the heavy missile nerf, it was essentially double nerf because CCP buffed the guns after the nerf.

You know what t2 guns do with a BS on a non moving drake? Mauls the crap out of it for full damage.
You can do it with a cruiser and destroyer as well, frigs are toast with a web and scram.


Must be nice.

If missiles are so great why is it that they are so little used in pvp? Aside for some in faction frig/destroyer warfare and even gun users are whining about missile success in that area. Rapid missile launchers are garbage on top of that.

You must be one of those nerf the drake people when it was the tank that made it effective, not the weapon system.



I wasn't calling for drake nerfs but nice try. I also never said T2 missiles were good. T2 high damage ammo sucks for some guns and missiles. Most people use faction high damage ammo for short range. The reason missiles are strong in Frig/Dessie PvP is LMLs have crazy range and Rockets apply all of their damage 90% of scenarios.

HMLs and Torps(Bombers would need a nerf) do need buffs. The other missiles work just fine in practice.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#22 - 2014-03-31 06:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
So I take it Caldari/Minmatar is a missing combo for pirate ship skills.

and

Mordus don't have any spaceships.

Would be fun to add new plexes that could spawn anywhere in k-space, rather than having them tied to regions, so that (a) everyone will eventually find one, and (b) they'll be hard to specialise in farming. If they want they can reduce frequency of drone plex spawn to make space for them.

mostly because Mordus doesn't really hold enough space.

They could even make the encounters revolve around jump drives (ie a black ops oriented escalation that pops the cynos for you).
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#23 - 2014-03-31 11:26:53 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Its not as bad as you claim, I assure you. Also ever use rage torps on a non moving drake? Its hundreds of damage less per shot even with the use of a stealth bomber as compare to faction. Dont even try it with a torp Battleship,

In fact HAM's you cant even hit another cruiser standing still without reduced damage and its a cruiser weapon.
Rockets require dual webs to be fully effective on another frig.


Anyone using Rage torps (explosion radius 580.5 m) against a battlecruiser deserves everything they get.

Your statements about rocket and HAM damage application are wrong, and obviously so.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#24 - 2014-03-31 17:49:57 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Its not as bad as you claim, I assure you. Also ever use rage torps on a non moving drake? Its hundreds of damage less per shot even with the use of a stealth bomber as compare to faction. Dont even try it with a torp Battleship,

In fact HAM's you cant even hit another cruiser standing still without reduced damage and its a cruiser weapon.
Rockets require dual webs to be fully effective on another frig.


Anyone using Rage torps (explosion radius 580.5 m) against a battlecruiser deserves everything they get.

Your statements about rocket and HAM damage application are wrong, and obviously so.

Actually, with no skills HAMs have an explosion radius of 125m, so there aren't many cruisers they'll hit for full damage in that case. Even with perfect skills they still have an explosion radius of 93.75m, which is large enough that quite a few cruisers won't get hit for full damage.

As for rockets, with perfect skills they have an explosion velocity of 225, which is slower than all frigs, and many frigs do indeed need to be double webbed to get that low...and that's without a propmod.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#25 - 2014-03-31 18:24:40 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Its not as bad as you claim, I assure you. Also ever use rage torps on a non moving drake? Its hundreds of damage less per shot even with the use of a stealth bomber as compare to faction. Dont even try it with a torp Battleship,

In fact HAM's you cant even hit another cruiser standing still without reduced damage and its a cruiser weapon.
Rockets require dual webs to be fully effective on another frig.


Anyone using Rage torps (explosion radius 580.5 m) against a battlecruiser deserves everything they get.

Your statements about rocket and HAM damage application are wrong, and obviously so.



As stated by the person below your post, he just proved you wrong. As for Rage torps, why must caldari not be able to use t2 torps when its fine for guns?

Still hating missile users i see. Let me guess, the phoenix issues arent really issues and its really the best Dread that no one uses because the claims about a titan and other caps ships speed tanking it are false as well right?

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#26 - 2014-03-31 19:15:31 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Its not as bad as you claim, I assure you. Also ever use rage torps on a non moving drake? Its hundreds of damage less per shot even with the use of a stealth bomber as compare to faction. Dont even try it with a torp Battleship,

In fact HAM's you cant even hit another cruiser standing still without reduced damage and its a cruiser weapon.
Rockets require dual webs to be fully effective on another frig.


Anyone using Rage torps (explosion radius 580.5 m) against a battlecruiser deserves everything they get.

Your statements about rocket and HAM damage application are wrong, and obviously so.

Actually, with no skills HAMs have an explosion radius of 125m, so there aren't many cruisers they'll hit for full damage in that case. Even with perfect skills they still have an explosion radius of 93.75m, which is large enough that quite a few cruisers won't get hit for full damage.

As for rockets, with perfect skills they have an explosion velocity of 225, which is slower than all frigs, and many frigs do indeed need to be double webbed to get that low...and that's without a propmod.


GMP exists for a reason. Train it.

All combat cruisers have sigs above 93.75 m. Out of all 58 cruisers, only the logis have a smaller sig - and a couple of them have larger sigs once you've actually fit some mods to them.

Rockets have an explosion radius of 15 m. This is half the sig of any frigate. I would say that I trust that I don't have to explain to you what effect this has on the effective explosion velocity, but it appears that I do. In the case of a frigate with sig 30 m, the effective explosion velocity is doubled to 450 m.

Hagika's statement is invalid except in the extremes, which cannot be construed as being representative of typical performance.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2014-04-01 12:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Roxy Everdeen wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Ever since the demise of the DPS of the Navy Raven under a crazy idea that somehow missiles are viable at super long range, when it take missiles forever and a day to travel.

Wait did the Raven Navy Issue get nerfed??


If you want to call it a nerf, it happened last year at the same time as Cruise Missiles got massively buffed. The CNR when from 9.33 effective launchers to 8 launchers with a 25% Precision bonus. Against small and medium targets, the CNR's new precision bonus actually improved a bit (10 effective launchers vs small/fast targets). It also got a sig reduction and a speed boost.

At the same time, cruise launchers got a 25% straight up damage boost and a 5% RoF buff; this change was announced before the Faction BS rework. CMLs also got a 50% velocity buff.

Some people convinced themselves that they were seriously going to get a 1300 DPS range-bonused cruise missile platform and then acted like they'd lost something when they didn't.

After the changes were combined, the CNR ended up smaller, faster, got an extra mid, had a bigger alpha, much better damage application, 17.3% more missile DPS (a little more if you take reloading time into account), but with slower volley time.

Call that a nerf if you like.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#28 - 2014-04-01 17:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Malcanis wrote:
Roxy Everdeen wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Ever since the demise of the DPS of the Navy Raven under a crazy idea that somehow missiles are viable at super long range, when it take missiles forever and a day to travel.

Wait did the Raven Navy Issue get nerfed??


If you want to call it a nerf, it happened last year at the same time as Cruise Missiles got massively buffed. The CNR when from 9.33 effective launchers to 8 launchers with a 25% Precision bonus. Against small and medium targets, the CNR's new precision bonus actually improved a bit (10 effective launchers vs small/fast targets). It also got a sig reduction and a speed boost.

At the same time, cruise launchers got a 25% straight up damage boost and a 5% RoF buff; this change was announced before the Faction BS rework. CMLs also got a 50% velocity buff.

Some people convinced themselves that they were seriously going to get a 1300 DPS range-bonused cruise missile platform and then acted like they'd lost something when they didn't.

After the changes were combined, the CNR ended up smaller, faster, got an extra mid, had a bigger alpha, much better damage application, 17.3% more missile DPS (a little more if you take reloading time into account), but with slower volley time.

Call that a nerf if you like.


So you buffed a broken weapon system that was so long over due, that it was ridiculous, left the other weapon system to continue to suck and the community has overwhelming stated over and over they needed worked on. Then you reduce the tank, add a tiny bit of speed and basically turned a pve boat to a better pve boat with less over all dps by a bit.
All the while making the minmatar counter part a better and higher dps pvp and great pve boat complete with a drone bandwith to fly large drones and have monster damage output. You effectively made the main missile race navy ship a weaker one. The justification was that of being worried people are going to snipe with cruise missiles lol.

Who are you try to fool? Everyone knows no one is going to snipe in a missile boat and they dont because of the ridiculous travel time. In pvp, there will almost always be webs so damage is king which is why the Phoon comes out better.

All the while you all came up with rapid launchers and not only a nerf but a pure disaster to the missile line, and you all left the phoenix and capital missiles to continue be garbage years and years on going as the worst dread.
Its a good think player owned stations cant move, they would be speed tanking the phoenix too.


So as you quote how cruise missiles were made better, which was long due, you pat yourself on the back for fixing what was broken for years and managed to leave other things broken,nerfed or now broken. Umm congrats?

We can go on about this and stray from the original topic, and i can easily point out how the eve community have little faith in Rise and Fozzie for how they conduct their work in eve. There are pages upon pages everywhere how people disapprove on how they do their nerfs and buffs, oh and lets not forget how they ask for feed back and then go completely opposite from the more knowledgeable player base.

You can keep patting yourself on the back for them fixing a broken weapon system and claim how you did so much.
Its like obama claiming how his heath care bill helped 6 million people so far to get coverage while the bill itself has booted 30 million from their better coverage.

Its amazing how the regular people get it, and the government doesnt. Same thing applies here.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-04-01 22:38:35 UTC
My CNR chews through stuff way faster than before it's "demise" ...

If that was a nerf can you pretty please nerf the Nightmare in a similar fashion?? Say cut the 5% per level damage bonus down to 10% per level and just to make sure it's a horrible ship to fly add a 5% per level bonus to optimal and falloff. I promise if you do this I'll make a post complaining about it!

Thanks

IIshira
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#30 - 2014-04-02 05:13:05 UTC
IIshira wrote:
My CNR chews through stuff way faster than before it's "demise" ...

If that was a nerf can you pretty please nerf the Nightmare in a similar fashion?? Say cut the 5% per level damage bonus down to 10% per level and just to make sure it's a horrible ship to fly add a 5% per level bonus to optimal and falloff. I promise if you do this I'll make a post complaining about it!

Thanks

IIshira


It was made a better pve boat as stated, and because cruise were fixed, it helped. In terms of PVP, its still never used.
Which was the whole problem to begin with.
Kaea Astridsson
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#31 - 2014-04-02 12:42:55 UTC
With the comming changes to the pirate frigs it seems this is already happening, the worm is looking at a 50% damage bonus to both Kinetic and Thermal.

Get on Comms, or die typing.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-04-02 13:21:00 UTC
Kaea Astridsson wrote:
With the comming changes to the pirate frigs it seems this is already happening, the worm is looking at a 50% damage bonus to both Kinetic and Thermal.


Isn't the Worm like the worst pirate faction frigate by far? I don't think I've ever seen one in space.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#33 - 2014-04-02 13:54:35 UTC
Well yes, but after the re balance it looks very promising in a number of roles...C:
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#34 - 2014-04-02 16:37:05 UTC
We are still missing a Caldari/Minmatar pirate faction. The addition of one is the perfect opportunity for a line of missile focused combat ships.
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#35 - 2014-04-02 17:30:20 UTC
Deathhawk*

8 highs - 7 launchers
6 mids
6 lows

100m3 bandwith
150m3 dronebay

Caldari bonus: 10% missile velocity per level
Minmatar Bonus : 5% missile damage per level
Role bonus: 25% missile Rate of fire.



See? It isn't that hard....

Disclaimer : I have no idea what balance means
*I suck at naming things.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....

Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#36 - 2014-04-02 17:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Berendas wrote:
We are still missing a Caldari/Minmatar pirate faction. The addition of one is the perfect opportunity for a line of missile focused combat ships.



Exactly what I was hoping for. High damage, either a web or TP bonus. Dont mind only having enough bandwith for a flight of smalls as long as the DPS is worth it.

Something that is pretty equivalent to the Vindi. Basically a Missile boat alternative.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#37 - 2014-04-02 20:35:05 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Berendas wrote:
We are still missing a Caldari/Minmatar pirate faction. The addition of one is the perfect opportunity for a line of missile focused combat ships.



Exactly what I was hoping for. High damage, either a web or TP bonus. Dont mind only having enough bandwith for a flight of smalls as long as the DPS is worth it.

Something that is pretty equivalent to the Vindi. Basically a Missile boat alternative.

Vindi has enough bandwidth for a flight of heavies in addition to 11 effective turrets.

Given that minmatar has drones as a bit of flavor, I don't see why 11 effective launchers + 125 bandwidth would be a problem.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#38 - 2014-04-02 20:56:48 UTC
A possible pairing would be caldaris' excellent missile focus with minmatars' specialization in target painting. Drones would definitely be completely secondary to a ship like that.

Breacher-Bellicose-phoon hulls?
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#39 - 2014-04-03 04:04:34 UTC
Sometimes you have to look at the alpha and applying that damage - not the dps.

People put too much emphasis on DPS when looking at which ships to fly.


Kaea Astridsson
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#40 - 2014-04-03 10:08:00 UTC
See alot of people calling for Mordu ships in these threads, aren't Mordu ships just Caldari ships? I haven't seen a Mordu in anything unique. And it would be a real bummer with just another "pirate" faction ship that's just basically a paint job.

Get on Comms, or die typing.