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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#41 - 2014-04-01 16:30:08 UTC
Very nice changes. Big smile

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TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2014-04-01 16:30:26 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Menor Minayin wrote:
So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner?

Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.



Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#43 - 2014-04-01 16:34:17 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Menor Minayin wrote:
So targeting range goes up, what about the survey scanner?

Holy crap does the survey scanner need some love! And not just range, but some kind of indicator that shows which asteroids are currently locked and which one is currently targeted.



Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?

The simplest change would be for the survey scanner to auto-repeat like most other modules.

MDD
Mira Taras
IonTek LLC
#44 - 2014-04-01 16:35:00 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Changing the mining bonus to a duration based one is of some help to the issue I will bring up. But the Skiff, and to some extent the Mack still have one big disadvantage compared to the Hulk: fewer strips. To see the issue consider:

Most miners target a roid and let the miner run its full cycle. If the roid is small some fraction of the cycle will be wasted. With the Hulk if one of your strips is on a small roid you will lose some small fraction of your yield, up to a maximum of one third.

But with the Skiff you could lose up to a complete cycle by targeting a small roid. As the single strip takes so much ore in one cycle there is a greater chance the roid will pop and you lose part of the cycle.

The result is under most practical uses, the Skiff mines much less than your table of numbers would indicate.

How to fix? I see three methods.
1) Redo the models so all mining ships have the same number of strips.
2) Make the strips on the Skiff cycle faster (but still produce the same cubic meters per minute). Of course the player can do this manually, but it just makes mining even more of a click fest.
3) Make it so if you mine a small roid the miner starts its cycle part way through so its timed to end just as the roid runs out of minerals. (This would fail if there are two strips on the same roid. But that is a rare case anyway).

#2 is the only one that can be done by just changing stats. The others require more coding.


Yes please! You would circle through your crystals faster, but i would rather have this than to micromanage cycle times in a skiff all day. This adds more of an economical decision to your safety then an attentive one. Just chance ore cycles to behave the same as ice cycles!
Seiko Hikitari
Everlasting Vendetta.
#45 - 2014-04-01 16:38:12 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Why does the Procurer lose a mid while gaining a low (maintains total slot count), while the Skiff gains a low (increases total slot count)?

Edit: This seems like a rather significant nerf to the (usually shield tanked) Procurer. Intended?

MDD


This. Overall more a nerf than a buff to Procurer. It should have been addressed in the OP. Maybe nerf the ore extraction some more to compensate and not make it the new Retriever. And undo the slight CPU buff to make fitting MLU harder. Covetor needs all the help it can get to be attractive. I concur that this doesn't address the fundamental issues of Exhumers but I will take what I can get.

tl;dr CCP don't take my 4th mid pls Cry
Dave Stark
#46 - 2014-04-01 16:41:42 UTC
let me elaborate on my previous post.

barge ehp has not changed. nor has ore hold size.

let's see why this solves nothing;

cov/hulk are still too flimsy to actually use, they're going to go pop before you can defend them in any way what so ever. not to mention the sheer level of hassle to use them, before we factor in that they're likely to be an expensive pod wrapper and not much else.

mack/ret are still the ship with the obscenely sized ore bay. people who mine 'afk', will carry on doing so, in the only ships that let them do it.

proc/skiff, well you've just took a mid slot from the proc so it now has less tank, making it less desirable than it previously was. so all in all you've just made one ship worse and done nothing for the rest.

i hope you can see how these changes address absoulutely **** all with the relative power discrepancy between all of the mining ships. oh and you've nerfed ore yield to boot with the "compensation" of ice yield, which is limited by ice site mechanics meaning it's just a flat nerf.

good job guys. completely crap changes.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-04-01 16:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
CCP Fozzie wrote:


SKIFF

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1);
Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 14(+4)
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 15000m3


HULK

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester optimal range
-3% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 300 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2200 / 1800 / 2000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 625 / 187.5s / 3.33
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+70) / 0.57(+0.124) / 30,000,000(-10,000,000) / 23.71s(-1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 35km(+12.5km) / 660 / 7
Sensor strength: 12(+4)
Signature radius: 200(+50)
Ore Bay: 8500m3

Let us know what you think!


After running some quick numbers, and assuming that there is enough CPU to fit full yield mods in the lows, according to these numbers the skiff has a higher max yield for both ice and ore.

(ice duration)
skiff = .9(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^3 (lows) = ~.6104 duration
hulk = .85(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^2(lows) = ~.6335 duration

Ore is similar to ice, but the equation is more complicated because they're not hitting the same variable (duration vs yield).

Edit: I messed up, they changed how potent the ship role bonus was for ice and ore. Carry on.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2014-04-01 16:48:19 UTC
CCP fozzie, you picked the worst day of the year to post all these updates. Seriously.
Dave Stark
#49 - 2014-04-01 16:54:28 UTC
Rowells wrote:
CCP fozzie, you picked the worst day of the year to post all these updates. Seriously.


based on how bad they are, i think this is the only day he could post it.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-04-01 16:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
TheMercenaryKing wrote:

Put bars in the survey scanner and make it an always active mod like cloaking. Have it show bars that slowly deplete over rocks being harvested?

This is actually a pretty cool idea. I'd say make it still cycle and use cap, but the overlay over asteroid behavior inside of its optimal range would be really cool. Maybe reduce the cap usage to reflect that it's meant to stay on longer?

e: Code already exists to do this for siphons -- they show an overlay in space when you click on them with a progress bar showing how full the siphon is. Perhaps this UI code could be re-used?

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Dave Stark
#51 - 2014-04-01 16:58:58 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
(ice duration)
skiff = .9(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^3 (lows) = ~.6104 duration
hulk = .85(barge) * .9(exhumer) * .91^2(lows) = ~.6335 duration

Ore is similar to ice, but the equation is more complicated because they're not hitting the same variable (duration vs yield).


have you forgotten about the 0.4 from the skiff's role bonus?

edit: damn your ninja edits
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-04-01 17:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Markku Laaksonen
I don't see how moving one of the Procurer's mids to a low was needed.

EDIT: As it is now, I would lose an Invuln and only possibly consider putting on a PDS in the new low.

My Procurer fit is bait

Highs
Strip Miner

Mids
Scram
Web
2x Invuln

Lows
PDS
DC

Drones
Either a flight of Hobs or Warriors

The reasoning for the fit is mining in areas or conditions where CONCORD won't save me, such as not high sec or during a war. I've wondered if it would be worth it to drop an invuln for an AB to help me stay in scram/web range until back up arrives, but I can't get it to fit without sacrificing too much tank. The prop mod just needs to wait till I can fly a Skiff, but how many people take that bait?

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Ralph Shepard
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-04-01 17:05:16 UTC
The range may increase above range of survey scanner II (especially when mining in fleet with foreman links), I think mining barges and exhumers should get a role bonus to survey scanner range, let's say 100%. They are specially designed for mining after all, which makes that bonus quite logical, don't you think?
Dave Stark
#54 - 2014-04-01 17:07:21 UTC
Ralph Shepard wrote:
don't you think?


nope, put the scanner on your orca and save your barge's mid slots for tank.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#55 - 2014-04-01 17:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
I'm with the rest, the procurer change does not make any sense. You're chopping its tank by about.. 30+ percent.. because.... its currently a pvp powerhouse?!?!?

You basically tear the nutsack off of the Procurer, and trying to play it off as a buff??? I don't want to jump to conclusions but I don't see the reason why the potential ship breaking nerf to the loss of a midslot on a procurer.

"The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, but gain an extra low slot (bringing their fitted yield up to the same level as the Retriever and Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense."

Skiff, good change.. Procurer.. the point of the change?!?!

If you could explain the thought process I would be fine with it... I just don't get the reason for ripping a midslot out of it and giving it a lowslot.

Basically, I (and others here), would like to know why.

Yaay!!!!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-04-01 17:16:21 UTC
move survey scanner, ship scanner and cargo scanner to highslots, change strip miners to turrets, add utility highs to skiff and procurer?

hulks and covetors can rely on orca scan ("fleet ships"), macks and rets are afk anyway

then rework mining completely and scrap it all because mining is horrible
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#57 - 2014-04-01 17:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-4% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+125% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone mining yield and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 3M(-1), 3L(+1);
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 14000m3

RETRIEVER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Ore Hold capacity
-4% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+15% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-20% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use

Slot layout: 2H, 3(+2)M, 3L;
Fittings: 35 PWG, 235 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2300 / 1700 / 2000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 550(+300) / 187.5s / 1.33
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 90(+10) / 0.659 / 20,000,000 / 18.26s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50 (+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 660 / 5
Sensor strength: 9
Signature radius: 250
Ore Bay: 22000m3

drone damage is for combat ships not mining ships ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#58 - 2014-04-01 17:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Make T1 and T2 crystals 10m3 in size, please!
It would just make life much easier. Especially for covetor (it would be also nice to increase its cargo bay, to have full pack of crystalls + extra for replasment).

Also please consider thar covetor is paper thin so its always ganked i n 0.5-0.6 (sometimes even in 0.7).

And second, do you realize that higher yeild is better than lower strip cycle time? Because of lower crystal damage rate. So why are you giving time bonus instead of giving higher yeild bonus? Keeping that in mind covetor will wear down crystals even faster.

Procurer is new mining king. Including 3 lows, tank and drone bonus.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-04-01 17:21:38 UTC
Nice changes.

Hope not April Foops.

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Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#60 - 2014-04-01 17:29:13 UTC
Seems legit Bear

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude