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Are Links Too Much?
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#241 - 2014-04-01 09:07:22 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
[
Isn't it convenient you ignored the first 20 minutes. LMAO! Just... gotta'... find... anything...to..rebut... with.

If you would like me to, I can post a list of solo PvP videos (full length videos without links) if you like. My apologies for posting a video where "some" fights were with links. Why does it feel like I'm talking to a group of teens right now...... I'm scared Cry

P.S - I guess the video not only demonstrates the viability of "Solo" play, but also demonstrates just how ******* strong links are. Blink


If there is an overwhelming abundance of tru solo videos out there, surely that demonstrates there isnt a massive problem with boosts?

Solo in a sandbox MMO is a valid form of PVP, no doubt. However, it is not a valid expectation.

Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:

Do you think people would be less inclined to use their T3 booster alts so often when forced to utilise them on grid? I think they would be, especially in solo and small gang combat. Why? Because of the traffic that passes through. Whilst you might be all "hnnnng frigate can't hurt my T3!," the small gang (3rd party) about to jump in system will most likely turn your T3 into space junk.

Willing to risk your T3 to still do this, that is fine by me. At least there is some risk involved in utilising such a tool that provides a huge advantage.

As a matter of fact, if this is your way of thinking things out, wouldn't a frigate be great bait!


Wow, spoken like someone who has only ever PvPs on a gate. I barely ever PvP on gates lol. You are making wide sweeping conclusions from a place of little experience.

Get back to your gate camp fella.


For soloists, yes boosts aren't that much of a problem because we simply don't engage anything if a known a T3 booster is in system. Small gang is very much the same as well. You can be the judge is you think this is a good thing or not, it's not as if anyone will change you view on the argument anyway....

I guess this guy doesn't know what an Interceptor or Force Recon ship is...... Yeh, I also only ever like to PvP on a gate +1 intel for you! Lol


I do not mind if enemy has links, we put prober working on those and then we give some pvp and maybe kill links if they are careless maybe not, but things are even , we have links and they have links, and we try to kill guys who has links and we try to kill their links, all at same time. I do not see any problem on links.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#242 - 2014-04-01 09:55:16 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
I do not know why solo pilot should even be able to kill guy who has links boosting, at least it is 1 vs 2 anyway.

Only problem seems to be that people are mad because boosters are 'hidden' somewhere and they can not shoot those, even if those would be on grid they could not do anything to that ship with their tiny solo pwnage frigate.

Truth about link is that those makes small fleets able to engage bigger blobs easier so link actually support small gang pvp not prevent those.

Solo in MMO is bit tricky business but some people still do it and are pretty good on it no matter if they have links or not. Other just die even they have links.

EVE is about larger set of thing affecting single attribute and that is what makes EVE good, it can be always different if you want to test out different strategies and links only give more variety to game.


Do you think people would be less inclined to use their T3 booster alts so often when forced to utilise them on grid? I think they would be, especially in solo and small gang combat. Why? Because of the traffic that passes through. Whilst you might be all "hnnnng frigate can't hurt my T3!," the small gang (3rd party) about to jump in system will most likely turn your T3 into space junk.

Willing to risk your T3 to still do this, that is fine by me. At least there is some risk involved in utilising such a tool that provides a huge advantage.

As a matter of fact, if this is your way of thinking things out, wouldn't a frigate be great bait!


i do not know what kind of eve you play but there is never risk to lose anything in eve. You may lose something only if you allow someone to kill it.Bringing link to grid does not make those any more vulnerable than those are now.

EDIT: and yes, frigate is good bait, put frigate to fight, probe links, kill them.


Whatever you're smoking... I'd love some. Can we be friends?
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2014-04-01 09:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
Most of all I want boosters to be seen/obvious. Add them to KB or add some graphical effect - idc. I just don't want to be forced into an engagement that is going to be boring and pointless. I also cba to waste my time checking local of 10+ to see if someone might be a link alt. Yes I can do it - but after 5th time in one day I kinda start to wonder why...

Links do just that - they add a completely new layer of tedious tasks you have to do in order to have fun and remain competitive. They are counter productive way of making low sec a place for gankers, who think it's time to step up after killing tons of ventures, but still can't stand the possibility the victim will have means to reliably fight back.

People are against them because they are ********, not because they loose a ship now and then.

Funny how people advocate for links because "EVE is MMO and MMO means group". You're using your alts dammit. How is you + yourself MMO? If that' true then Baldurs Gate and Dragon Age I were constant multiplayer - you could play 4-5 incarnations of yourself at the same time!

Ganking a links ship will require resources, skills and many other stuff people dealing with them won't have. And why should we? Why do I have to engage the guy (so the link ship decloaks), scan him down, and kill him fast? It's a couple of people forced to deal with with 1 dumb mechanic, placed in game only so teenagers could brag about how good they are in solo.

It's a way of crooking pvp one way or the other. Make them obvious and they will die off, because retards will have no one to fight. People using them to fight outnumbered will get some fights as long as the other side has chances. Solved. Ofc most of people here use fighting outnumbered as an excuse only, because from what I've seen - links are used solely to get a fast, reliable way of pumping their KBs.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#244 - 2014-04-01 11:07:27 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
I do not know why solo pilot should even be able to kill guy who has links boosting, at least it is 1 vs 2 anyway.

Only problem seems to be that people are mad because boosters are 'hidden' somewhere and they can not shoot those, even if those would be on grid they could not do anything to that ship with their tiny solo pwnage frigate.

Truth about link is that those makes small fleets able to engage bigger blobs easier so link actually support small gang pvp not prevent those.

Solo in MMO is bit tricky business but some people still do it and are pretty good on it no matter if they have links or not. Other just die even they have links.

EVE is about larger set of thing affecting single attribute and that is what makes EVE good, it can be always different if you want to test out different strategies and links only give more variety to game.


Do you think people would be less inclined to use their T3 booster alts so often when forced to utilise them on grid? I think they would be, especially in solo and small gang combat. Why? Because of the traffic that passes through. Whilst you might be all "hnnnng frigate can't hurt my T3!," the small gang (3rd party) about to jump in system will most likely turn your T3 into space junk.

Willing to risk your T3 to still do this, that is fine by me. At least there is some risk involved in utilising such a tool that provides a huge advantage.

As a matter of fact, if this is your way of thinking things out, wouldn't a frigate be great bait!


i do not know what kind of eve you play but there is never risk to lose anything in eve. You may lose something only if you allow someone to kill it.Bringing link to grid does not make those any more vulnerable than those are now.

EDIT: and yes, frigate is good bait, put frigate to fight, probe links, kill them.


Whatever you're smoking... I'd love some. Can we be friends?


yes we can, 2b and we can be friends
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#245 - 2014-04-01 11:10:21 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Most of all I want boosters to be seen/obvious. Add them to KB or add some graphical effect - idc. I just don't want to be forced into an engagement that is going to be boring and pointless. I also cba to waste my time checking local of 10+ to see if someone might be a link alt. Yes I can do it - but after 5th time in one day I kinda start to wonder why...

Links do just that - they add a completely new layer of tedious tasks you have to do in order to have fun and remain competitive. They are counter productive way of making low sec a place for gankers, who think it's time to step up after killing tons of ventures, but still can't stand the possibility the victim will have means to reliably fight back.

People are against them because they are ********, not because they loose a ship now and then.

Funny how people advocate for links because "EVE is MMO and MMO means group". You're using your alts dammit. How is you + yourself MMO? If that' true then Baldurs Gate and Dragon Age I were constant multiplayer - you could play 4-5 incarnations of yourself at the same time!

Ganking a links ship will require resources, skills and many other stuff people dealing with them won't have. And why should we? Why do I have to engage the guy (so the link ship decloaks), scan him down, and kill him fast? It's a couple of people forced to deal with with 1 dumb mechanic, placed in game only so teenagers could brag about how good they are in solo.

It's a way of crooking pvp one way or the other. Make them obvious and they will die off, because retards will have no one to fight. People using them to fight outnumbered will get some fights as long as the other side has chances. Solved. Ofc most of people here use fighting outnumbered as an excuse only, because from what I've seen - links are used solely to get a fast, reliable way of pumping their KBs.


Maybe you are just in wrong game. Best thing in EVE is complexity and fact that nothing is so simple than it 1st seem to be.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#246 - 2014-04-01 11:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
Bad Messenger wrote:
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Make them obvious and they will die off, because retards will have no one to fight. .


Maybe you are just in wrong game. Best thing in EVE is complexity and fact that nothing is so simple than it 1st seem to be.


Let's redesign newbie forums then. When someone asks for guidelines tell him: "first of all start a 2nd account, browse market till you find strategic cruisers and check the requirements. Then work your skill plan around that. When it comes to your main account - oh, just think what will be fun to get into, and remember: people had success in pvp from day 0. All it takes is good attitude".

Complex I can understand, but links are a stealthy way to make pvp fight unwinnable to the other side. Call it a mechanic, I say that mechanics like that are called "balance issues", and should be patched. Their only advantage is that they are so dumb most people cba to use them. Problems start when you have neighbors using them 24/7.

In that case you need to learn who is who, before you will start to get decent, fair matches again. And we're back to what I was saying in my previous post: links are a pile of **** you need to shovel. Daily. They do not add to fun, they do not help to balance the game in their current state. It's just a thing you need to work around in order to totally ignore it. It's just not justified to keep them unchanged.

All that for what? PVP being easier on you? Linked frigates can solo destroyers. I heard about linked comet tanking and killing a hawk.

Fighting linked ship comes down to being linked yourself. Again - you need to put effort in order to ignore their influence.

Saying they are fine and should be worked around is like saying gold ammo is great, cause you can always use it yourself/avoid being attacked.

edit:

Also - how does making your pvp easier make the game more complex? It's just the opposite: you have boosts to mitigate your flaws. Links are the no-brainer solution. You don't need to care for fits, if you know the particular module will not make as much of a difference as your alt will.

Links put pvp on the same level as mining. Rocks can't shoot back too after all. Challenge is the same.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#247 - 2014-04-01 12:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:


Also - how does making your pvp easier make the game more complex? It's just the opposite: you have boosts to mitigate your flaws. Links are the no-brainer solution. You don't need to care for fits, if you know the particular module will not make as much of a difference as your alt will.

Links put pvp on the same level as mining. Rocks can't shoot back too after all. Challenge is the same.


95% of BM's posts are trolling. He is a master of spinning chicken **** into chicken salad. The above summarizes a criticism I have for links. They completely break the paper, rock, scissors nature of EvE. Resist holes? The correct counter? I'm all for unorthodox fits that surprise the enemy but with links - it just really doesn't matter what the other guy has! Your AB brawler with crazy scram and web range will work just fine vs. that condor coming into your novice.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#248 - 2014-04-01 12:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:


Also - how does making your pvp easier make the game more complex? It's just the opposite: you have boosts to mitigate your flaws. Links are the no-brainer solution. You don't need to care for fits, if you know the particular module will not make as much of a difference as your alt will.

Links put pvp on the same level as mining. Rocks can't shoot back too after all. Challenge is the same.


95% of BM's posts are trolling. He is a master of spinning chicken **** into chicken salad. The above summarizes a criticism I have for links. They completely break the paper, rock, scissors nature of EvE. Resist holes? The correct counter? I'm all for unorthodox fits that surprise the enemy but with links - it just really doesn't matter what the other guy has! Your AB brawler with crazy scram and web range will work just fine vs. that condor coming into your novice.


Personally, i use links to take a relatively poor ship and turn it into a very viable and unexpected tackler/sometimes 'solo' killer. There are those that fly the best ships, with the strongest tanks and the highest implants. These are the kind of people i enjoy killing the most and i know a lot of people enjoy killing me. I dont know what all the complaining is about.

I have no problem with links on killboards, or links inheriting aggression. Everyone knows i fly with links anyway, nor do i make any attempt to hide it. Bringing links on grid would remove links from FW entirely, which some would say is a good thing, i would strongly disagree, obviously.

If people spent half as much time learning how to probe rather than worrying about links i imagine they would be a lot happier.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#249 - 2014-04-01 12:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Yeah we got it. The counters to links are:

Your own links.
Bring a blob.
Probe out the links. Have others distract with a fight. (Bring a blob v.2)
E-War.

Edit: Link aggression timer, again, would satisfy me.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#250 - 2014-04-01 14:03:23 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Yeah we got it. The counters to links are:

Your own links.
Bring a blob.
Probe out the links. Have others distract with a fight. (Bring a blob v.2)
E-War.

Edit: Link aggression timer, again, would satisfy me.


as well we can get rid of all kind of ships and mods and just leave noob ships with basic fittings.

then we can all be happy.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#251 - 2014-04-01 15:03:46 UTC
Proving my earlier point....

Zarnak Wulf wrote:


95% of BM's posts are trolling. He is a master of spinning chicken **** into chicken salad.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#252 - 2014-04-01 16:18:57 UTC
I have no problem with the current incarnation of links, and I concur with the current counters - blob, bring your own, or don't take the fight.

If CCP brings links ongrid, then CCP needs to scale appropriately. Currently logi and EWAR scale (i.e. T1 frig logi, t1 cruiser logi, T2 logi), so command links would need to be designed similiarly.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#253 - 2014-04-01 20:03:32 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Proving my earlier point....

Zarnak Wulf wrote:


95% of BM's posts are trolling. He is a master of spinning chicken **** into chicken salad.


lies , all lies
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#254 - 2014-04-01 20:14:36 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Make them obvious and they will die off, because retards will have no one to fight. .


Maybe you are just in wrong game. Best thing in EVE is complexity and fact that nothing is so simple than it 1st seem to be.


Let's redesign newbie forums then. When someone asks for guidelines tell him: "first of all start a 2nd account, browse market till you find strategic cruisers and check the requirements. Then work your skill plan around that. When it comes to your main account - oh, just think what will be fun to get into, and remember: people had success in pvp from day 0. All it takes is good attitude".

Complex I can understand, but links are a stealthy way to make pvp fight unwinnable to the other side. Call it a mechanic, I say that mechanics like that are called "balance issues", and should be patched. Their only advantage is that they are so dumb most people cba to use them. Problems start when you have neighbors using them 24/7.

In that case you need to learn who is who, before you will start to get decent, fair matches again. And we're back to what I was saying in my previous post: links are a pile of **** you need to shovel. Daily. They do not add to fun, they do not help to balance the game in their current state. It's just a thing you need to work around in order to totally ignore it. It's just not justified to keep them unchanged.

All that for what? PVP being easier on you? Linked frigates can solo destroyers. I heard about linked comet tanking and killing a hawk.

Fighting linked ship comes down to being linked yourself. Again - you need to put effort in order to ignore their influence.

Saying they are fine and should be worked around is like saying gold ammo is great, cause you can always use it yourself/avoid being attacked.

edit:

Also - how does making your pvp easier make the game more complex? It's just the opposite: you have boosts to mitigate your flaws. Links are the no-brainer solution. You don't need to care for fits, if you know the particular module will not make as much of a difference as your alt will.

Links put pvp on the same level as mining. Rocks can't shoot back too after all. Challenge is the same.


who says newcomer have to have his own links, there is lot of players and corporations who provide links if needed.

As i have said several times, EVE is not solo game, get friends.

I do use decent fits that works with link or without links as well.

Some fits are special fits that work only with links and with fleet that support your fit, there is nothing wrong on that, But take those ship out of their planned use and it will die easily, EVE is about knowing when to engage and how, example current 0.0 is so big blob fest that if you want to engage those big fleets with your small fleet you have to know how to split them and get some of them killed.

EVE is about timing and links does not change that fact anyhow.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#255 - 2014-04-01 20:29:23 UTC
Linked derp atron fleet is best fleet.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#256 - 2014-04-01 20:40:07 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Linked derp atron fleet is best fleet.

SHHHHHH!!!! YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO GIVE AWAY OUR SEKRIT WEAPON!!!!!

Damnit. Now every fleet we tear apart with our mighty Derptron will simply whine that we're linked out the wazoo.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2014-04-02 09:49:15 UTC
You might consider links to be fun, but do not impute that there are what the game is about.

certain victory + lasorz = mining

So quit subbing that second account and go high sec roid belts to be honest about yourself.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#258 - 2014-04-03 10:01:41 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
You might consider links to be fun, but do not impute that there are what the game is about.

certain victory + lasorz = mining

So quit subbing that second account and go high sec roid belts to be honest about yourself.


I use boosts and lose a lot of ships.

But then i will have a go at almost anything.
Lilith Velkor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2014-04-03 12:48:34 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

Truth about link is that those makes small fleets able to engage bigger blobs easier so link actually support small gang pvp not prevent those.


No, a larger force is more likely to actually have links, and the smaller force (if it has links) is at a distinct disadvantage deploying them. You pointed out why yourself earlier in this thread.

Having them only active on grid would be a boost to small gangs against larger forces, again you pointed out why yourself earlier.
Yuri Antollare
Moira.
#260 - 2014-04-03 14:47:48 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
I have no problem with the current incarnation of links, and I concur with the current counters - blob, bring your own, or don't take the fight.



Allow me to elaborate.

The current counters, blob (bring enough people that mechanics/ships and how balanced they are is irrelevant), bring your own (counter to x being x = good balancing) or don't take the fight (balance is actually so bad pvp is discouraged.)

Sounds reasonable to me.

13 pages?

Also sounds reasonable for a perfectly balanced part of the game.









lol.