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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#961 - 2014-03-31 18:50:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Well in a few months we'll know for sure anyway.

Hahaha not that the actual facts will change anyone's minds either way. Srs tho, make a place for Steve Ronuken on your ballot; he's this year's champion of the 3rd party community, and the sooner CCP start exposing more data through the CREST project, the sooner we can have some real, relatively current data to support our preformed conclusions!


Malcanis, why is it so hard for CCP to pull out some hard data?
CCP can turn this 50 page "he said, she said" back and forth into 10 pages real quick, by simply pulling the relevant data for the last 6 months, aggregating it, and presenting a simple pie chart.

You give me a day to brush up on my old SQL skills, and another day getting up to speed on the CCP database, and I could pull out hard numbers. I imagine a SQL pro could get the numbers in a couple hours.

I KNOW they won't, because it will defeat the cartels' constant propaganda about this being a minor hit to mission running, but I wish CCP had the balls to back up their game mechanic changes with numbers.

I mean, CCP MUST have previously run numbers to come up with all the odd little ones they have on refine and this 50% re-process nerf. or was just a simple one at the pub where the cartel guys said, "hey, let's cut reprocess in half"?

Oh, and for the record, that 37% number is pulled out of my butt, just like Tippia's and the other liar's 3.7% is.
But I know mine is closer to the truth that theirs is.


Realtalk: CREST is still alive, but it has been pushed down the priority list for a variety of reasons. You can directly ask CCP for more work on CREST, but - at no cost to yourself - you can also help hi-sec manufacturer Steve Ronuken get onto the CSM, where he can put the case face-to-face with the relevent devs, and also provide personal expertise to assist CCP in doing so.

Naturally Steve is a sockpuppet of the Nullsec RMT cartels, but then, who isn't?


I have used his web site for mfg info many times, so I suppose I do owe him a vote.
As for him being a high sec manufacturer as he claims, I just don't know.

But it does not answer my original question, why CCP can't provide us with numbers NOW to justify assault on mission runners?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#962 - 2014-03-31 18:53:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have used his web site for mfg info many times, so I suppose I do owe him a vote.
As for him being a high sec manufacturer as he claims, I just don't know.

But it does not answer my original question, why CCP can't provide us with numbers NOW to justify assault on mission runners?

Possibly because they don't see it as any kind of assault on mission runners, nor anything that needs to be justified. After all, there's very little to suggest that they'll be massively affected by the change.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#963 - 2014-03-31 18:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have used his web site for mfg info many times, so I suppose I do owe him a vote.
As for him being a high sec manufacturer as he claims, I just don't know.

But it does not answer my original question, why CCP can't provide us with numbers NOW to justify assault on mission runners?
They don't need to provide you numbers since you mean nothing to them. They are too busy tending to our needs, you know? Us, the null sec cartels who own this game. It's our game and it will stay that way all the time we can ensure the CSM members are majority voted by our member base and installed specifically to push our agenda.

Edit: Whoops!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#964 - 2014-03-31 22:18:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have used his web site for mfg info many times, so I suppose I do owe him a vote.
As for him being a high sec manufacturer as he claims, I just don't know.

But it does not answer my original question, why CCP can't provide us with numbers NOW to justify assault on mission runners?

Possibly because they don't see it as any kind of assault on mission runners, nor anything that needs to be justified. After all, there's very little to suggest that they'll be massively affected by the change.


We already have the numbers anyway. We have known for years exactly how much isk is in every single mission and how it is disperced between LP, bounty, mission payment, salvage, loot and refineable junk.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#965 - 2014-03-31 23:16:49 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, and for the record, that 37% number is pulled out of my butt, just like Tippia's and the other liar's 3.7% is.
But I know mine is closer to the truth that theirs is.


So when I spent an hour shooting BS in lowsec style anomolies the other day, I made 60m of bounties, 13.5m of melt, and 13.5m of salvage/saleables, ie melt was 15% of the income. Actual mission runners have LP, mission reward and bonus on top of that too, and actual mission runners have to occasionally deal with drones that have no loot, and tag missions where the loot is all tags.

You can't break the bounty/melt relationship. It is what it is for each race in the game. ie the actual reduction for a typical mission runner that loots might well be 7.5% and half of the mission runners don't loot, ie I could see some logical chain of reasoning that could arrive at 3.7% over the population, but I can't see any logical derivation for 37%
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#966 - 2014-03-31 23:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Tauranon wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, and for the record, that 37% number is pulled out of my butt, just like Tippia's and the other liar's 3.7% is.
But I know mine is closer to the truth that theirs is.


So when I spent an hour shooting BS in lowsec style anomolies the other day, I made 60m of bounties, 13.5m of melt, and 13.5m of salvage/saleables, ie melt was 15% of the income. Actual mission runners have LP, mission reward and bonus on top of that too, and actual mission runners have to occasionally deal with drones that have no loot, and tag missions where the loot is all tags.

You can't break the bounty/melt relationship. It is what it is for each race in the game. ie the actual reduction for a typical mission runner that loots might well be 7.5% and half of the mission runners don't loot, ie I could see some logical chain of reasoning that could arrive at 3.7% over the population, but I can't see any logical derivation for 37%



You might get 37% for a new player running some of the hisec level ones. It does not take much in level 1 missions for the salvage to exceed all else combined.

It would only happen in Level IV in the very very rare low/bounty/LP mission where there was a lucky drop of a 20 mill plus implant but thats not ISK from reprocessed salvage anyway.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#967 - 2014-03-31 23:31:57 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:


It would only happen in Level IV in the very very rare low/bounty/LP mission where there was a lucky drop of a 20 mill plus implant but thats not ISK from reprocessed salvage anyway.


Damsel and Gone Berserk both push 15mil or so in loot, before melting, with 5 and 10 mil in bounty receptively. Without the hyperlink of course.
stoicfaux
#968 - 2014-04-01 01:42:35 UTC
I hate you people. Err, I mean, I have some statistically insignificant numbers for a given edge case: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4217001

At 800 isk/lp, loot was 19.6% of income.
At 1000 isk/lp, 18.7%
At 2000 isk/lp, 15.3%
At 3000 isk/lp, 13.0%

For missions such as AE, Damsel, Gone Berserk, and Mordus Headhunters, the loot was 45 to 49% of income for that mission at 800 isk/lp (and I left a lot on the field for Mordus.)


Of that, the mineral value of the loot was 135M versus the estimated loot value of 185M (i.e. meta 4s.) So... 50M for the loot selling above mineral value, so post reprocessing ner, that's 135M * 45% = 61M in minerals. (50+61)/185 = 60%. So an expected 40% drop in loot income post reprocessing nerf.

So... I imagine for the people who use a Noctis to clean up after missions, loot income is a non-trivial and the reprocessing nerf will be noticeable.


/Lies,_damn_lies,_and_statistics.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#969 - 2014-04-01 02:08:04 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Oh, and for the record, that 37% number is pulled out of my butt, just like Tippia's and the other liar's 3.7% is.
But I know mine is closer to the truth that theirs is.


So when I spent an hour shooting BS in lowsec style anomolies the other day, I made 60m of bounties, 13.5m of melt, and 13.5m of salvage/saleables, ie melt was 15% of the income. Actual mission runners have LP, mission reward and bonus on top of that too, and actual mission runners have to occasionally deal with drones that have no loot, and tag missions where the loot is all tags.

You can't break the bounty/melt relationship. It is what it is for each race in the game. ie the actual reduction for a typical mission runner that loots might well be 7.5% and half of the mission runners don't loot, ie I could see some logical chain of reasoning that could arrive at 3.7% over the population, but I can't see any logical derivation for 37%



You might get 37% for a new player running some of the hisec level ones. It does not take much in level 1 missions for the salvage to exceed all else combined.



I'd suggest the terms melt and salvage for clarity.

I tried a "no market", "no agent" startup recently on an alt - ie I'd buy skills and BPs from market, but otherwise not interact.

Level 1 missions do not load large plates, large guns or large RRs or other large sources of mins, (nor do anomoly or belt rats in highsec, which was what I was using).

Things that caused tooltip value blowouts for me.

meta mapc from bloods
muon disruptors from serps
fleeting propulsion inhibitor from anyone.

Quote:


It would only happen in Level IV in the very very rare low/bounty/LP mission where there was a lucky drop of a 20 mill plus implant but thats not ISK from reprocessed salvage anyway.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#970 - 2014-04-01 02:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
stoicfaux wrote:
I hate you people. Err, I mean, I have some statistically insignificant numbers for a given edge case: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4217001

At 800 isk/lp, loot was 19.6% of income.
At 1000 isk/lp, 18.7%
At 2000 isk/lp, 15.3%
At 3000 isk/lp, 13.0%

For missions such as AE, Damsel, Gone Berserk, and Mordus Headhunters, the loot was 45 to 49% of income for that mission at 800 isk/lp (and I left a lot on the field for Mordus.)


Of that, the mineral value of the loot was 135M versus the estimated loot value of 185M (i.e. meta 4s.) So... 50M for the loot selling above mineral value, so post reprocessing ner, that's 135M * 45% = 61M in minerals. (50+61)/185 = 60%. So an expected 40% drop in loot income post reprocessing nerf.

So... I imagine for the people who use a Noctis to clean up after missions, loot income is a non-trivial and the reprocessing nerf will be noticeable.


/Lies,_damn_lies,_and_statistics.




So tell me, how much do you think the marauder, mtu and salvage drone combo has buffed collection whilst missioning, and how much of a negative effect do you think that combo is on mining. ie it appears that combo raises your income, where switching to a noctis, lowers my rate of asset/isk generation - despite the almost perfect fields I left behind for the noctis (7 pockets with about twice as many wrecks as a mission pocket).
stoicfaux
#971 - 2014-04-01 03:29:04 UTC
Tauranon wrote:

So tell me, how much do you think the marauder, mtu and salvage drone combo has buffed collection whilst missioning,

It feels considerable. Previously, it was 2 tractors and a salvager (35% chance of success.) Nowadays it's 4 tractor beams and the five salvage drones between them have a 44% chance of being successful at IV (or 50% at Salvage Drone Operation V.) Plus the MTU and Salvage Drones means less time lost over micromanaging tractors+salvagers.


Quote:
and how much of a negative effect do you think that combo is on mining.

No idea. Without some solid numbers from CCP, it's just idle speculation. But since anecdotal evidence is best evidence, I use refined loot to provide the minerals for LP BPCs.

Quote:
ie it appears that combo raises your income, where switching to a noctis, lowers my rate of asset/isk generation - despite the almost perfect fields I left behind for the noctis (7 pockets with about twice as many wrecks as a mission pocket).

You made 60M isk in an hour in bounties or 1M isk/minute (and that 1M isk/minute would be higher if you didn't bother with the Noctis.) You salvaged 27M in loot+salvage or 0.45M isk/minute? How much time did you spend in the Noctis and in the combat ship?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#972 - 2014-04-01 05:30:42 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

You made 60M isk in an hour in bounties or 1M isk/minute (and that 1M isk/minute would be higher if you didn't bother with the Noctis.) You salvaged 27M in loot+salvage or 0.45M isk/minute? How much time did you spend in the Noctis and in the combat ship?


1hr shooting, 33 minutes after that in the noctis. The bounties were only 60m, because I was using the widely avaliable in lowsec port encounter, since I was trying to get a feel for how much melt Mario can generate. I could shoot at 75m/hr if I used hubs, and I can also compress the number of encounters (and thus reduce warps etc) if I used named hubs that have more battleships and waves.

Bear in mind that stopping to loot and not continuing to do encounters is delaying the escalations too - which is why I haven't been in any hurry to try this.
Judas Isu
Firman AB
#973 - 2014-04-23 22:37:09 UTC
I don't think it should come as a shock to anyone. When the nerf bat swings it generally hits the mission runners first.
Solecist Project
#974 - 2014-04-23 22:51:04 UTC
This thread reminds me of the good old times in Deltole,
at the FON station,
when one could make 30-40 Million ISK an hour
killing the FONs and looting the wrecks.

Makes me wonder...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#975 - 2014-04-23 22:51:22 UTC
Judas Isu wrote:
I don't think it should come as a shock to anyone. When the nerf bat swings it generally hits the mission runners first.



Only if you loot.

Which basically means lower level missions and lower bounty missions for low LP/ISK corps.

SOE level IVs in the 0.5 mission systems pay roughly 20 mill per mission for cashed in LP. You get more ISK/hour ignoring the small loot and doing more missions unless its one of the particularly loot filled mission scenarios mentioned above.

Its simple math, an extra 50% longer looting everything generally picks up at the most 10 or 15 mill in reprocessed loot. Meanwhile blitzing gets you halfway to another 20 mill of LP and 10 to 30 mill of bounty. Over a period of time you make more blitzing.
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#976 - 2014-04-23 22:52:20 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
I like how nerf is called "significant improvements" in the article.

CCP is practically a government. At least they use the same methods of crowd control.

I see what you did there, but I am struggling to see if you see what you did there Lol Oh and unfortunately I feel this post is way too late to attract the attention of the poster Oops
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#977 - 2014-04-23 22:52:33 UTC
Judas Isu wrote:
I don't think it should come as a shock to anyone. When the nerf bat swings it generally hits the mission runners first.

What is shocking, though, is this level of necro-posting and how rarely mission-runners are hit by any nerfs at all.
Solecist Project
#978 - 2014-04-23 22:58:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Judas Isu wrote:
I don't think it should come as a shock to anyone. When the nerf bat swings it generally hits the mission runners first.

What is shocking, though, is this level of necro-posting and how rarely mission-runners are hit by any nerfs at all.

Now now... I remember at least TWO nerfs to mission runners in the last four years!!!!!1111oneoneone


lol

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#979 - 2014-04-23 23:02:22 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Judas Isu wrote:
I don't think it should come as a shock to anyone. When the nerf bat swings it generally hits the mission runners first.

What is shocking, though, is this level of necro-posting and how rarely mission-runners are hit by any nerfs at all.

Now now... I remember at least TWO nerfs to mission runners in the last four years!!!!!1111oneoneone


lol



You mean like Marauders ... pretty much designed to wipe mission rooms with no effort ... or the Domi ... or the MTU or for that matter salvage drones which are also new.

Yep lots of Mission nerfing gone on in recent years :D
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#980 - 2014-04-23 23:56:29 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

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