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Unanchoring Dead POS's

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Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#61 - 2014-03-31 19:28:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?


Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.

To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2014-03-31 19:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sapheni wrote:
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored.
Yeah, no. It takes a bit more than that.

Unless we're talking about low or null, but in that case, you can already get rid of it very easily so there's no need for any change.

Quote:
It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.
So, potentially months and months of mission grinding and/or a crapton of ISK spent on tags?
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#63 - 2014-03-31 19:36:20 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thanks.



I think you threw the baby out with the bathwater on some of those. Perhaps a scalpel would be in order next time and not a machete.

Good to see ISD working GD regardless.



☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#64 - 2014-03-31 19:40:56 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.

To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free.
Yup, I didn't have to get standing or individually sit there positioning modules or anything.

And the point is, when I put it up, nobody was there. I didn't boot someone out of their space for zero cost, which is what you want. On top of that, if you are too poor and too risk averse to wardec a random inactive corp, what possible hope do you think you'd stand in keeping a POS? It's not like they never get war decced. If I want to have a POS and I want to save fuel between periods of use, that's my business. If you don't like it, you already have the tools to stop me. So quit bitching and use the tools.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#65 - 2014-03-31 19:48:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored.
Yeah, no. It takes a bit more than that.

Unless we're talking about low or null, but in that case, you can already get rid of it very easily so there's no need for any change.

Quote:
It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.
So, potentially months and months of mission grinding and/or a crapton of ISK spent on tags?


No. High sec corps acquire standings through other activities anyway. Even when it does require "months and months of mission grinding" that isn't a reason to allow a corp to reserve resources indefinitely without investing further isk/effort.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#66 - 2014-03-31 19:51:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.

To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free.
Yup, I didn't have to get standing or individually sit there positioning modules or anything.

And the point is, when I put it up, nobody was there. I didn't boot someone out of their space for zero cost, which is what you want. On top of that, if you are too poor and too risk averse to wardec a random inactive corp, what possible hope do you think you'd stand in keeping a POS? It's not like they never get war decced. If I want to have a POS and I want to save fuel between periods of use, that's my business. If you don't like it, you already have the tools to stop me. So quit bitching and use the tools.


There's people who quite happily destroy abandoned towers for free. No cost to me at all. However, the point is that your attitude is wrong. This mechanic allows you to reserve an asset indefinitely without further investment of time/cost/effort. This is quite contrary to... well everything else in EVE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2014-03-31 19:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sapheni wrote:
No. High sec corps acquire standings through other activities anyway.
…and that doesn't remove the fact that it takes a fair bit of effort to put up a POS — if you just try to warp in and anchor it, you simply won't be allowed to.

So by the reasoning that it should take as much effort to tear one down as it does to put one up, the attackers will have to go through the same grind. In other words, it's a pretty lousy measure to use for what should be needed.

Quote:
Even when it does require "months and months of mission grinding" that isn't a reason to allow a corp to reserve resources indefinitely without investing further isk/effort.
The good news is that corps already can't really do that. Nothing is being reserved for you and if you don't invest any ISK or effort, you'll lose the spot sooner or later.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#68 - 2014-03-31 19:59:11 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.

To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free.
Yup, I didn't have to get standing or individually sit there positioning modules or anything.

And the point is, when I put it up, nobody was there. I didn't boot someone out of their space for zero cost, which is what you want. On top of that, if you are too poor and too risk averse to wardec a random inactive corp, what possible hope do you think you'd stand in keeping a POS? It's not like they never get war decced. If I want to have a POS and I want to save fuel between periods of use, that's my business. If you don't like it, you already have the tools to stop me. So quit bitching and use the tools.


There's people who quite happily destroy abandoned towers for free. No cost to me at all. However, the point is that your attitude is wrong. This mechanic allows you to reserve an asset indefinitely without further investment of time/cost/effort. This is quite contrary to... well everything else in EVE.


Got it. Other people are doing something you can't do yet so it needs to be nerfed. Check..


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#69 - 2014-03-31 20:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I had to put in the effort to get it there in the first place. Why should you be able to just come along and undo all of that for absolutely nothing?
Nonsense. You warped in. You pushed a few buttons. It anchored. It should take exactly the same amount of effort to remove an abandoned POS as it took to place it.

To facilitate this CCP could just copy and paste the code over from Mobile Depots - hey presto it automatically decays/unanhors if abandoned for thirty days. No more moons for free.
Yup, I didn't have to get standing or individually sit there positioning modules or anything.

And the point is, when I put it up, nobody was there. I didn't boot someone out of their space for zero cost, which is what you want. On top of that, if you are too poor and too risk averse to wardec a random inactive corp, what possible hope do you think you'd stand in keeping a POS? It's not like they never get war decced. If I want to have a POS and I want to save fuel between periods of use, that's my business. If you don't like it, you already have the tools to stop me. So quit bitching and use the tools.


There's people who quite happily destroy abandoned towers for free. No cost to me at all. However, the point is that your attitude is wrong. This mechanic allows you to reserve an asset indefinitely without further investment of time/cost/effort. This is quite contrary to... well everything else in EVE.
Not really... You can leave everything in stations for all eternity. Not even characters get deleted even after years of inactivity. I'd say it's more against EVE to allow people to simply take stuff with no effort. They have a system in place already to clear moons, it's not difficult, like you rightly pointed out, so use it. We don't need yet another automatic mechanic to account for people's laziness.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#70 - 2014-03-31 20:09:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
No. High sec corps acquire standings through other activities anyway.
…and that doesn't remove the fact that it takes a fair bit of effort to put up a POS — if you just try to warp in and anchor it, you simply won't be allowed to.


Maybe I've missed something during the hundreds of times I've set up towers in high/low/null sec over the last ten years, but warping in and anchoring is essentially all that it takes: A few minutes of "effort".

Tippia wrote:
So by the reasoning that it should take as much effort to tear one down as it does to put one up, the attackers will have to go through the same grind. In other words, it's a pretty lousy measure to use for what should be needed.


"Grind" that pays? So they'd get paid for shooting the POS instead of having to pay a war dec fee?

Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Even when it does require "months and months of mission grinding" that isn't a reason to allow a corp to reserve resources indefinitely without investing further isk/effort.
The good news is that corps already can't really do that. Nothing is being reserved for you and if you don't invest any ISK or effort, you'll lose the spot sooner or later.


This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way. If it wasn't a problem then this topic wouldn't pop up on the forum every so often. They normally include stats (active:abandoned per system within x jumps of y hub), but hey, you can still check for yourself, although I should caution that it might require more effort than it does to set up a control tower...
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#71 - 2014-03-31 20:14:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Not really... You can leave everything in stations for all eternity. Not even characters get deleted even after years of inactivity. I'd say it's more against EVE to allow people to simply take stuff with no effort. They have a system in place already to clear moons, it's not difficult, like you rightly pointed out, so use it. We don't need yet another automatic mechanic to account for people's laziness.


Leaving assets/characters in stations doesn't effect other players in any way. However, leaving a tower in space to deliberately block a moon does affect other players and requires disproportionate effort to rectify. You've already admitted to abusing this mechanic for this reason so I don't think you get to accuse other players of being "lazy".
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#72 - 2014-03-31 20:16:24 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way. If it wasn't a problem then this topic wouldn't pop up on the forum every so often. They normally include stats (active:abandoned per system within x jumps of y hub), but hey, you can still check for yourself, although I should caution that it might require more effort than it does to set up a control tower...
If a POS is abandoned, it has no defense, so it won't last long. When people claim a moon with an offline POS, it's not abandoned, meaning you have to either fight or bargain with the owner, and no amount of times will change that, since if they actively want it they can online it every x days.

And when people post those stats, that's offline POSes, not abandoned. They have no way of knowing if it's abandoned.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2014-03-31 20:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sapheni wrote:
Maybe I've missed something during the hundreds of times I've set up towers in high/low/null sec over the last ten years, but warping in and anchoring is essentially all that it takes: A few minutes of "effort".
Yes, you've missed something. In highsec, you can't just do that without putting the required effort in. Since you haven't fulfilled the prerequisites, your attempt is simply automatically denied.

Quote:
"Grind" that pays?
No. Just grind that is soul-crushing and takes ages or costs a ton of money, and which increases in size the more people you involve. If you can make money from it, great. It doesn't remove the actual grind required. Nor does it make like-for-like a good design principle.

Quote:
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way.
…except that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way.

It's only a “problem” because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#74 - 2014-03-31 20:19:31 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
Leaving assets/characters in stations doesn't effect other players in any way. However, leaving a tower in space to deliberately block a moon does affect other players and requires disproportionate effort to rectify. You've already admitted to abusing this mechanic for this reason so I don't think you get to accuse other players of being "lazy".
How have I done it for that reason? I save on fuel when I'm between research. I still have to fend off every idiot that thinks they can take it. You want offline POSes to disband so you have to put in absolutely zero effort to remove another player and let the game take care of it for you. There no comparison there. You are lazy and risk averse to pay 50m for an occupied moon. So go find an empty one, like I had to in my early days, and stop crying.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#75 - 2014-03-31 20:36:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way.
…except that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way.
It's only a “problem” because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with.


Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless".
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#76 - 2014-03-31 20:39:09 UTC
Sapheni wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way.
…except that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way.
It's only a “problem” because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with.


Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless".
First come first serve? If you don't want to put the effort into booting someone out of their space, find an empty moon. Remember, your POS will have exactly the same level of protection.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2014-03-31 20:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sapheni wrote:
Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing.
Yes, if you want to put up a POS you obviously have to put in the effort required to put up a POS… but we're talking about pulling down a POS, which according to you should take just as much effort and which as a result — as anyone who has actually put up a highsec POS knows — would therefore have to require a whole lot more than just warping in and pushing a few buttons.

As someone who has allegedly set up hundreds of POSes, you should know this already too…
Quote:
Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless".
I would if I had ever said anything of the kind, but I haven't so I won't.

I'll just leave you with the same old chestnut: like for like is a terrible design philosophy.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#78 - 2014-03-31 20:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sapheni
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing.
Yes, if you want to put up a POS you obviously have to put in the effort required to put up a POS… but we're talking about pulling down a POS, which according to you should take just as much effort and which as a result — as anyone who has actually put up a highsec POS knows — would therefore have to require a whole lot more than just warping in and pushing a few buttons. As someone who has allegedly set up hundreds of POSes, you should know this already too…


Shall I explain the POS interface because it sounds like you haven't used it. A player, let's call him Lucas Kell, warps to a moon. He selects the control tower in his cargo hold, pushes the 'launch for corp' button, finds and selects it in space, moves a little box around and then selects anchor. That's it. It takes a few button pushes and he now controls that space indefinitely (and probably wants a medal for his oh-so-difficult work) unless another player is prepared to put in additional effort, time and isk to remove it.

Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless".
I would if I had ever said anything of the kind, but I haven't so I won't.


Try re-reading your previous posts.
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#79 - 2014-03-31 20:59:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sapheni wrote:
This discussion is about corps reserving space in exactly that way.
…except that you can't do that in EVE. Again, nothing is reserved, and if left unattended it will be gone sooner or later. Definitely sooner if it's blocking other players in any way.
It's only a “problem” because people don't want to use the tools at their disposal for some unexplained reason, even though it's pretty much effortless to do so, especially compared to actually putting the tower up to begin with.


Using the current mechanics the corp that wants the space will have to put in exactly the same amount of "effort" to be able to drop the tower in that slot AND they have to pay 50m isk for the privilege of AFK-POS-bashing. Explain to me how you've contrived that it requires lots of effort for the original corp to install the POS, but for another corp to replace it is "pretty much effortless".
First come first serve? If you don't want to put the effort into booting someone out of their space, find an empty moon. Remember, your POS will have exactly the same level of protection.


That's the point. All the moons are taken and far too many are occupied by lazy players who abuse a nonsensical mechanic.
Incidentally, my POSs tend to have their shields on, so they have quite a bit more protection.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2014-03-31 21:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sapheni wrote:
Shall I explain the POS interface because it sounds like you haven't used it.
No, you should instead explain the requirements to set up a highsec POS because it sounds like you flunked the exam on that one the first time around — you keep leaving out a very crucial step that's required before the game even allows you to do the stuff you're describing.

Quote:
Try re-reading your previous posts.
You mean the ones where I don't say anything about replacing POSes or the effort required to do so? Done and done. The contrivance is all yours.

Quote:
All the moons are taken and far too many are occupied by lazy players who abuse a nonsensical mechanic.
What's nonsensical about keeping what you find until someone takes it away from you? How is it “abuse” or “lazy” to lose your stuff if you don't put the effort in? Oh, and especially, how is it “lazy” on the POS owners' part that they will lose their stuff if they don't keep it alive, but not lazy on the attackers' side if they want to crete losses without putting any effort into it?