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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#1761 - 2014-03-31 12:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Anna Karhunen wrote:
If that means they only want sociopaths, sadists and such, then so be it.


Anna Karhunen wrote:
I find all that rather distasteful, hyperbolic and indicative that you really should spend more time in real life instead of forums.


I dont understand how you can actually say these two things in the same post and not know you are being hypocritical

Anna Karhunen wrote:
If they want us normal people, that is fine as well.

We are honoured by your presence, Your Majesty

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1762 - 2014-03-31 12:44:14 UTC
Haha, you hatemongers are awesomesauce!

It's quite obvious what you think but reason be damned your forum cred won't suffer!
So we are in agreement than, when paying for a service where you can do whatever you want unless it crosses a hidden line it's good practice to warn paying customers they are crossing the invisible line.

I don't compare anything related to eve, teamspeak or even hurt feelings to anything related to the holocaust because that would be SICK, can't imagine who thinks like that.... Oh wait.

Thanks.


D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Salvos Rhoska
#1763 - 2014-03-31 13:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Danalee wrote:
!
So you agree a warning from CCP when you are behaving in a way the doesn't comply with their invisible line is prudent.
+1]


A warning would be "nice", but its not a term you can claim you are entitled to.

Concretely also, the ways these things work on a practical level, there are sometimes different people handling specific instances.

I, for example, received two warnings from two different authority people, almost simultaneously, for the same one improper use of language ingame, in one incident.

I sent a ticket therafter, not disputing that I had been wrong (though I suppose I could have), but to double check I didnt get double marked for the same infraction.

Turns out I had been, and the situatiin was corrected.

Trust CCP. I do. Else I wouldnt be giving them my money.

In theory at least, it is perfectly acceptable and fine, for someone with a scam in mind, for example, to contact CCP with the specifics and ask directly that "would this be ok?" This seems counter-intuitive, but actually its extremely prudent to do so, escpecially if your scam is very unusual and unprecedented. I think its safe to say CCP wont ban you for asking :D To my reading they even actively encourage you to do so. TNOs entire operation, for example, was auditted and on consultation with CCP, ensured that it fits their ingame policy as acceptable.

There have been unofficiated reports that Erotica1 would have done just that, and asked CCP is his conduct inline with their policy, to which I seem to remember CSM Malcanis saying he had intent to look into that.

Insofar as that, and as CSM have stated they feel Erotica1 was given due process, and their agreement and support of the issued statement is written therein, Im am happy with the outcome, and feel that this has been done fairly, and the result is "good".

Ive ranted that CSM are not representative of me personally, but Ive never argued that they arent representative of the player base.
This case, in particular, has shown the value of this ingame representative body as both a watchdog for player interests, as well as a group we, as players, atleast nominally, can trust to represent our interests as players to the governing body that is CCP.

Forum warrioring has been fun, especially on such an important issue and one I feel and think strongly about, and Ive gotten to meet a lot of outspoken individuals in the community here. Very smart people in the mix. EVE certainly deserves its reputation in that regard. I think its great that the forums are such an extenestion of the game. They fuflill, quite literally, the meaning of the word "forum". We are a community, and its important we talk and express ourselves in that regard.

If I may, Id like to share an original quote with you for consideration:
"You are only as free, as you allow others to be" -Me.

Now, back to the gaming side of things. Ive got quotas to fill for PLEX and a virtual space empire to build! :P
Snupe Doggur
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1764 - 2014-03-31 14:17:34 UTC
Danalee wrote:
...So we are in agreement than, when paying for a service where you can do whatever you want unless it crosses a hidden line it's good practice to warn paying customers they are crossing the invisible line...

The line still isn't invisible. This case is clearer, not murkier, than most, in that one of the perps posted the audio files to the Internet for all to see. Multiple instances of verifiable, real-life harassment connected to the game.

I can understand some confusion in a poster who is unaware of the extent of the toxicity, but serial harassers foolish or compulsive enough to out themselves to the world in close association with EVE IP may not merit a warning. Particularly "paying" customers who may be paying only with PLEX converted from scams. I doubt your implied revenue argument is relevant.

If you're running your own bonus room, though, I recommend not publishing the evidence. You'll probably get away with it, without any need for conspiracy theories about invisible lines.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#1765 - 2014-03-31 14:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
So its Lord of The Flies still relevant to all of this or are we past that already?

This entire thread is extremely confusing.
Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1766 - 2014-03-31 14:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Snupe Doggur wrote:
Danalee wrote:
...So we are in agreement than, when paying for a service where you can do whatever you want unless it crosses a hidden line it's good practice to warn paying customers they are crossing the invisible line...

The line still isn't invisible. This case is clearer, not murkier, than most, in that one of the perps posted the audio files to the Internet for all to see. Multiple instances of verifiable, real-life harassment connected to the game.

I can understand some confusion in a poster who is unaware of the extent of the toxicity, but serial harassers foolish or compulsive enough to out themselves to the world in close association with EVE IP may not merit a warning. Particularly "paying" customers who may be paying only with PLEX converted from scams. I doubt your implied revenue argument is relevant.

If you're running your own bonus room, though, I recommend not publishing the evidence. You'll probably get away with it, without any need for conspiracy theories about invisible lines.


The more people dance arround this, the more strongly I feel about how the warning is the best and most common sense solution.

To make it totally clear once more; This isn't specificly about that single case.

If however in the one case where this whole debate sprouted from, a warning had been issued, we wouldn't have had all the bad publicity, hurt feelings, lost players, frustrated CSM members et all. We'd all be playing the game we love.
So, if CCP and the CSM are honestly looking for a way to prevent this kind of things happening and have a better community from it there is no need to choose from an elaborate list of choices and no need to change the rules. They just need improve their communication with the players a little bit.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#1767 - 2014-03-31 15:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Danalee wrote:


If however in the one case where this whole debate sprouted from, a warning had been issued, we wouldn't have had all the bad publicity, hurt feelings, lost players, frustrated CSM members et all. We'd all be playing the game we love.
So, if CCP and the CSM are honestly looking for a way to prevent this kind of things happening and have a better community from it there is no need to choose from an elaborate list of choices and no need to change the rules. They just need improve their communication with the players a little bit.

D.

Bear


Well, just keep in mind that communications are a hell of a lot better than they used to be. But yes, there is still room for improvement, especially over things such as this.

This isn't the first time that there was a backlash over bad press. In the 9 years I have been playing, situations like this sprout up every so often, and are handled in a way that would suggest everybody forgot about the way it was handled the time prior.

Short term memory on part of the community and CCP? Maybe...

That could very well be the root of the problem.
Snupe Doggur
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1768 - 2014-03-31 15:51:22 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Snupe Doggur wrote:
Danalee wrote:
...So we are in agreement than, when paying for a service where you can do whatever you want unless it crosses a hidden line it's good practice to warn paying customers they are crossing the invisible line...

The line still isn't invisible. This case is clearer, not murkier, than most, in that one of the perps posted the audio files to the Internet for all to see. Multiple instances of verifiable, real-life harassment connected to the game.

I can understand some confusion in a poster who is unaware of the extent of the toxicity, but serial harassers foolish or compulsive enough to out themselves to the world in close association with EVE IP may not merit a warning. Particularly "paying" customers who may be paying only with PLEX converted from scams. I doubt your implied revenue argument is relevant.

If you're running your own bonus room, though, I recommend not publishing the evidence. You'll probably get away with it, without any need for conspiracy theories about invisible lines.


The more people dance arround this, the more strongly I feel about how the warning is the best and most common sense solution.

To make it totally clear once more; This isn't specificly about that single case.

If however in the one case where this whole debate sprouted from, a warning had been issued, we wouldn't have had all the bad publicity, hurt feelings, lost players, frustrated CSM members et all. We'd all be playing the game we love.
So, if CCP and the CSM are honestly looking for a way to prevent this kind of things happening and have a better community from it there is no need to choose from an elaborate list of choices and no need to change the rules. They just need improve their communication with the players a little bit.

D.

Bear
No rules were changed, and a ban is one good way to prevent future similar occurrences.

If this about lobbying for a second chance a the banned player, you should probably address all the known actions, and explain why lifting the ban would be more likely to prevent recidivism than would leaving it in place.

Lest this sound snide, I really do believe that a permaban sends a stronger and clearer message about acceptable behavior. I think it is an example of the better communication you say you want. No lengthy explanations or hair-splitting; just a this-is-unacceptable for anyone who cares to familiarize himself with the evidence, with the evidence provided by the banned player out there if anyone cares to divine levels of unacceptability.

I don't see a mystery. No doubt there are other cases where I might complain, but in this situation there's more than enough to show why any game company might move quickly to distance itself.
Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1769 - 2014-03-31 16:04:29 UTC
Snupe Doggur wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Snupe Doggur wrote:
Danalee wrote:
...So we are in agreement than, when paying for a service where you can do whatever you want unless it crosses a hidden line it's good practice to warn paying customers they are crossing the invisible line...

The line still isn't invisible. This case is clearer, not murkier, than most, in that one of the perps posted the audio files to the Internet for all to see. Multiple instances of verifiable, real-life harassment connected to the game.

I can understand some confusion in a poster who is unaware of the extent of the toxicity, but serial harassers foolish or compulsive enough to out themselves to the world in close association with EVE IP may not merit a warning. Particularly "paying" customers who may be paying only with PLEX converted from scams. I doubt your implied revenue argument is relevant.

If you're running your own bonus room, though, I recommend not publishing the evidence. You'll probably get away with it, without any need for conspiracy theories about invisible lines.


The more people dance arround this, the more strongly I feel about how the warning is the best and most common sense solution.

To make it totally clear once more; This isn't specificly about that single case.

If however in the one case where this whole debate sprouted from, a warning had been issued, we wouldn't have had all the bad publicity, hurt feelings, lost players, frustrated CSM members et all. We'd all be playing the game we love.
So, if CCP and the CSM are honestly looking for a way to prevent this kind of things happening and have a better community from it there is no need to choose from an elaborate list of choices and no need to change the rules. They just need improve their communication with the players a little bit.

D.

Bear
No rules were changed, and a ban is one good way to prevent future similar occurrences.

If this about lobbying for a second chance a the banned player, you should probably address all the known actions, and explain why lifting the ban would be more likely to prevent recidivism than would leaving it in place.

Lest this sound snide, I really do believe that a permaban sends a stronger and clearer message about acceptable behavior. I think it is an example of the better communication you say you want. No lengthy explanations or hair-splitting; just a this-is-unacceptable for anyone who cares to familiarize himself with the evidence, with the evidence provided by the banned player out there if anyone cares to divine levels of unacceptability.

I don't see a mystery. No doubt there are other cases where I might complain, but in this situation there's more than enough to show why any game company might move quickly to distance itself.


Ok, tell that to all the new guys joining and being told: BE THE VILLAIN.
The don't know who got banned when for what.
A warning is commone sense.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#1770 - 2014-03-31 16:13:24 UTC
Danalee wrote:

Ok, tell that to all the new guys joining and being told: BE THE VILLAIN.
The don't know who got banned when for what.
A warning is commone sense.

D.

Bear


Quoted for truth!

+1

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#1771 - 2014-03-31 16:58:11 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Danalee wrote:

Ok, tell that to all the new guys joining and being told: BE THE VILLAIN.
The don't know who got banned when for what.
A warning is commone sense.

D.

Bear


Quoted for truth!

+1



A warning is common sense. Except when you go way over the line. Nobody will tell you where the line is. If you want to play around where the line is, you have to be willing to accept that you are taking the 'ultimate' risk. Effectively permadeath.

Kind of like the ultimate risk vs. reward balance. You want to be a villain? Go for it. But know that if you cross the line there is a chance that you will run afoul of the game masters and end up out of game. The line is really wide and kind of obscure and fuzzy, but nobody knows where that is. Anyone who plays on the edges of the line can get caught up in it.

You are gambling with your entire in-game life. Risking it all for some form of reward. Which makes the game great. Because you *can* play on the edges and be successful at it. But there is always the chance that you go too far. I've played on that edge before. Months of blog posts and forum posts that are very embarrassing to certain people. And I did it knowing that I was very much running a risk that I could at any point generate enough noise and enough complaints that I could catch a ban or a warning. And years of investment and time and stories could get wiped out instantly. But I knew and realized it.

What makes EvE great is that the line isn't a straight edge, well defined line. You can play on that edge, or even play right on the line, or even in some cases over the edge of the line. But you do so at your own risk, with the full knowledge that at some point it can all come crashing down.

Many people see this lack of a definitive line as a problem. Those that do are not willing to risk it. Effectively they want to 'be the villain' without risk. And that in reality should not be. There is risk to everything in EvE. Some risks are greater than others. We speak a lot about mitigating that risk. Don't go out in what you can't afford to replace. Don't fly into a situation that you know will get you killed. Bring friends, bring logistics, bring a cyno. Playing on the edges of 'unacceptable behavior' carries a larger risk than anything else you can do in the game. And failure to research it and find out what the precedents are, where lines have been drawn in the past, and by reading a hell of a lot figuring out where the line is moving (because yes boys and girls, the line does move over the years) and adapting your behavior to match is the only risk mitigation you have on this particular play style.

CCP has effectively stated 'We cannot define what is over the line. But we will know it when we see it and take appropriate action' and at this point, we are either going to have to take that statement and accept that we will never have a clear definition of 'How far can I go' or 'Under what circumstances can I catch a ban', or we can stop playing the game against that line and maybe go do something safer. The choice is up to you. Are you going to continue doing 'bonus room activities' and posting the results on a third party site for the amusement of the masses and accept that you may catch a ban for your activities? Or are you going to do something safer.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1772 - 2014-03-31 16:59:42 UTC
Liese Shardani wrote:
Vilar Diin wrote:
"We need our Evil Emperors (TheMittani), our Tywin Lannister (Baltec1) and the other assorted scoundrels out there, we even need the phosphorescent green mold that accumulates under many space urinals (The New Order).

What we don't need is a Hannibal Lector mind humping his prey before eating their liver with a nice Chianti, it's not good press, it's not good for player retention and it is not good for the community.

That recording is truly awful and if it evokes such a primal response Eve players (arguably a harder bunch than average) imagine it in the hands of a politician that wants to add restrictions to gaming, mother's being asked for their cc# so a new guy can make an account etc.etc.

Our Hannibal is obviously extremely intelligent and he can change his act if he chooses to, so banning, not the best option in my opinion. He did a disgusting thing, but many things I see in this game, particularly in this thread, which seems to have attracted the worst of the worst in this game, sicken me. However, it's not my game to say what is acceptable; CCP and the community will have to decide." -Drone16

Have to agree here. I would like to think that the person "roleplaying" a truly reprehensible individual in game is not some sort of "spread the lotion on itself..." kind of guy in real life.

After all, the game is Rated:Teen, not 45 with peanut butter issues

I like the stance CCP took, keep the douchebaggery, but let everyone know there are limits that they will determine on a case by case.
I'm hoping they actually will learn something from this, but I don't expect them to come here and admit it. But hope springs eternal.

I don't know how many people have listened to the stream from last night, but at one point, it came out that the player behind Erotica 1 was talking to Sohkar that same night under one of his other alts, beancounter Jaynara. I haven't listened again to the audio, but my recollection is that Jaynara was complaining about having lost money to Erotica and Sohkar actually volunteered to try to get it back for him. Not only that, Sohkar told Jaynara he planned to PLEX up to take Erotica on.

I'll have to find the audio and listen to that part again to confirm the details, but it'd be interesting to hear more about how that whole thing went down.

Also, it sounds like Ero may have caught a ban of some sort, so I guess he won't be able to answer here, but if he does do an AMA on reddit, one question I'd have is how it felt to know that the guy you're scamming and pushing to the point of a meltdown is there because he's trying to HELP one of your alts.


Interesting twist. We know Sohkar left and came back to the bonus room. Since there's no record of what he was doing in between, what do you think the chances are that in this interval, he was prompted and encouraged by "Jaynara" to continue his efforts in helping get his stuff back? Even if "Jaynara" did not contact him directly during this time, simply having the motivation of someone else depending on Sohkar could have been a strong part of the reason for his pressing through the bonus room for so long.

It really puts a whole new level on E1's psychological manipulation, doesn't it?
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1773 - 2014-03-31 17:06:08 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Danalee wrote:

Ok, tell that to all the new guys joining and being told: BE THE VILLAIN.
The don't know who got banned when for what.
A warning is commone sense.

D.

Bear


Quoted for truth!

+1


Exactly! CCP needs to be clear. Their message should read something like this:

BE THE VILLAIN... IN GAME... NOT IN REAL LIFE. REFRAIN FROM MAKING PEOPLE SPREAD MAYO IN THEIR BODIES OUT OF GAME UNDER THE PRETENSE THAT IT'S STILL IN GAME. REFRAIN FROM REELING PEOPLE OUT OF THE GAME TO GRIEF THEM AND THEIR FAMILY OUT OF GAME.

I mean, come on, how are we supposed to know this stuff is crossing the line unless it's clearly stated in CCP's statements? Its almost as if CCP expects us to have some sort of common sense.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Snupe Doggur
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1774 - 2014-03-31 17:11:23 UTC
There's no legal precedent anywhere for everyone getting a second chance to commit every offense, not even for minors. I don't know why anyone would expect CCP to change their TOS in that manner. Some mud you drag CCP's name through is too muddy, and some offenders don't get second chances.
Bayonnefrog
Blueprint Mania
#1775 - 2014-03-31 17:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bayonnefrog
Mario Putzo wrote:
No one should be banned. That is the point. the only reason anyone is banned is because CCP was getting bad press.

The Bonus Room wasn't a problem a year ago. CCP Knew about it. Why is it suddenly a problem now. Answer bad press in the MMO community. Thanks Ripard Teg.

Its just like when Mittani got banned...oh wait no it isn't Erotica1 has never told this community to troll someone until they commit suicide.

The only reason someone was banned was because CCP took some heat. That is it, that is all. If Ripard never wrote his blog, and this didn't become an issue in the MMO community, then it would have been business as usual, just as it has been for over a year.


Continue to pass the buck.

Like Ripard stated in his last post this is all a side issue used by the Ero 1 apologists(errrrr obtuse "escrow agents") to somehow justify the depraved behavior exhibited in the Sohkar Bonus Room. The banning was rightly justified.
Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1776 - 2014-03-31 17:29:21 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Danalee wrote:

Ok, tell that to all the new guys joining and being told: BE THE VILLAIN.
The don't know who got banned when for what.
A warning is commone sense.

D.

Bear


Quoted for truth!

+1


Exactly! CCP needs to be clear. Their message should read something like this:

BE THE VILLAIN... IN GAME... NOT IN REAL LIFE. REFRAIN FROM MAKING PEOPLE SPREAD MAYO IN THEIR BODIES OUT OF GAME UNDER THE PRETENSE THAT IT'S STILL IN GAME. REFRAIN FROM REELING PEOPLE OUT OF THE GAME TO GRIEF THEM AND THEIR FAMILY OUT OF GAME.

I mean, come on, how are we supposed to know this stuff is crossing the line unless it's clearly stated in CCP's statements? Its almost as if CCP expects us to have some sort of common sense.


You sure have a weird mayo fetish, I'd have that checked if I was you Lol
Anyhow, we are talking about all the fringe cases not just the one pertaining the guy you don't like.
Should shadoo be warned not to call other people reatrded?
Should that goon who broke a new player and costed him 2000$ all the while taunting him to go back to WOW be warned he is entering a grey area.
Should all the tear harvesters be warned if they start drawing blood?
etc... etc... etc....

For the one thing that is clear in the EULA, Racism: people are actually making excuses for the person who blatantly broke that rule?!

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1777 - 2014-03-31 17:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Take the common American ladder.

Is it covered in placards until you can barely see aluminum because Americans are too stupid to be expected to climb a few steps up and then a few steps down without putting themselves in the hospital? (Well, maybe. But that's a different thread)

Those placards are there to prevent legal liability in a country where reputations are made on finding that one little loophole by some bottom feeding maggot (read: lawyer) for a massive payday.

Many of us enjoy fighting other players. Our UI set-ups reflect this. You can barely see the actual game with all the windows open. Now picture your screen instead covered in warning messages, flashy bits and Y/N pop-ups because CCP has to cover it's legal ass after you lot got your whiny way and forced them into writing specific rules to cover every little thing.

Think and use the brain you were born with before you go off the deep end as is so common in here.

Bottom line is that after you force CCP into screwing themselves, you can just go do the same thing to another game company. They don't have that option. They need to nip this **** in the bud and that's what they did.

Boo hoo for you.

Mr Epeen Cool
Bael Malefic
Doomheim
#1778 - 2014-03-31 17:56:37 UTC
Danalee wrote:


For the one thing that is clear in the EULA, Racism: people are actually making excuses for the person who blatantly broke that rule?!

D.

Bear


Do quote one person excusing racism on this thread or any related thread.

Just one quote.
Bael Malefic
Doomheim
#1779 - 2014-03-31 18:01:27 UTC
Danalee wrote:


I don't compare anything related to eve, teamspeak or even hurt feelings to anything related to the holocaust because that would be SICK, can't imagine who thinks like that.... Oh wait.

Thanks.


D.

Bear


Really? Just after you quoted Niemoller's famous quote about the Holocaust to make your point about how you disapprove of CCP's enforcement actions?

Inconsistent much?
Tesco Ergo Sum
#1780 - 2014-03-31 18:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tesco Ergo Sum
A funny comment seen on the Steam forums:

Quote:

Option 3

Hands off MY Sociopath Simulator...

Players create content and should be allowed to without interference from CCP!

Otherwise this isn't a sandbox, just a poorly disguised themepark.


http://steamcommunity.com/app/8500/discussions/0/558751813276565710/

Sounds like many of the Erotica 1 apologists...