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[Proposal] Removal of Automatically Generated Emails
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-03-30 11:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
TL;DR

My proposal is that automatically generated emails on aggression of structures be removed from EvE. EvE should be a sandbox game in as many aspects as possible. This includes one of the most useful tools in EvE online, scouts and intelligence gathering. With timers automatically providing free intel on every and any aggression the sandbox is not only not working, its completely broken.


The Problem

In our current EvE Online we are having to deal with coalitions that are close to 40k players. That number if the players in that coalition were a population of a country, would place that country number 30 on the 30's smallest countries. Meaning there would be 29 other countries that exist in RL that have smaller populations than our biggest coalition.

Given this, when an email is generated and sent to a large coalition of players it means that that coalition will be able to gather enough of a defense to completely destroy any smaller entity. This removes the ability for any smaller entity in EvE online from being able to use sandbox methods to attack that large group. This means there is only one way for anyone to take space in EVE, by activating the email, alerting the enemy, then turning up at the time of the enemies choosing and if its one of these mega-coalitions, being completely eradicated.

This is the antithesis of sandbox and I feel that these mails should be removed asap to allow sandbox methods to once again be used in EvE online for attacks against other parties.


The Proposal

Remove automatically generated mails. Place the responsibility of noticing and informing on the players themselves. If a player doesn't notice there is a big red timer spread across the system view within 24 hours then the owner loses that structure as is only fair in a sandbox game.

Intel gathering and scouting needs to be part of holding sovereignty and should not be handled by the server at all. EVE is supposed to be player run, player created, player focused and player driven. For those huge coalitions that hold vast amounts of space but never go there this will be a blow but given that they have up to 40k players, its hardly much to ask them to check their systems imo.

Like this is you would like to see a non-blue donut, player focused, sandboxy EvE again

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2 - 2014-03-30 16:46:09 UTC
Four things:

1: "I can't figure out how to deal with this mechanic" =/= "This mechanic is broken". If you think people are gathering undue information on your plans from structure mails, use them against the recipients. If you hit a bunch of structures at once, you can clog the inbox with lots of 'fake' mails not actually related to your plans, giving yourself cover in which to work. It's not even necessarily all that hard, since you can send people extra mails just by taking casual potshots at things as you go by. The more you do this, the less useful structure mails will be as an intel source.

2: It is in no way unrealistic that your expensive facilities would not have security on the level of a car alarm, to alert you when someone's trying to mess with them. The power of 'email alerts' is already something which exists in real life today, so it's entirely unsurprising that, in the future, you can do the same thing.

3: Malcanis' law applies here. Sure, it'd be somewhat inconvenient for a huge coalition to have to check its space regularly. It'd be a lot harder for a small organization to do the same, despite the fact that they have less to check. Major alliances have the manpower and organization to execute regular patrols (re: handling of siphons). Smaller groups don't. This change wouldn't hurt large organizations in the way you think it will, and it'd serve as (yet another) barrier preventing small and inexperienced groups from holding sov.

4: Structure mails are not a sov-only phenomenon. There are hisec carebear types that own research poses and whatnot, and they need all the help they can get in defending their facilities (even if it only amounts to an 'evacuate before this time' notice). Sure, professional structure-shooters probably could do without extra help in knowing when they need to be shooting structures... it's the amateurs and wannabes that really do, and they'd be hurt a lot worse by this change than anyone else.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-03-30 17:00:22 UTC
Endovior wrote:
Four things:

1: "I can't figure out how to deal with this mechanic" =/= "This mechanic is broken". If you think people are gathering undue information on your plans from structure mails, use them against the recipients. If you hit a bunch of structures at once, you can clog the inbox with lots of 'fake' mails not actually related to your plans, giving yourself cover in which to work. It's not even necessarily all that hard, since you can send people extra mails just by taking casual potshots at things as you go by. The more you do this, the less useful structure mails will be as an intel source.

2: It is in no way unrealistic that your expensive facilities would not have security on the level of a car alarm, to alert you when someone's trying to mess with them. The power of 'email alerts' is already something which exists in real life today, so it's entirely unsurprising that, in the future, you can do the same thing.

3: Malcanis' law applies here. Sure, it'd be somewhat inconvenient for a huge coalition to have to check its space regularly. It'd be a lot harder for a small organization to do the same, despite the fact that they have less to check. Major alliances have the manpower and organization to execute regular patrols (re: handling of siphons). Smaller groups don't. This change wouldn't hurt large organizations in the way you think it will, and it'd serve as (yet another) barrier preventing small and inexperienced groups from holding sov.

4: Structure mails are not a sov-only phenomenon. There are hisec carebear types that own research poses and whatnot, and they need all the help they can get in defending their facilities (even if it only amounts to an 'evacuate before this time' notice). Sure, professional structure-shooters probably could do without extra help in knowing when they need to be shooting structures... it's the amateurs and wannabes that really do, and they'd be hurt a lot worse by this change than anyone else.

1. It has nothing to do with "I can't figure out how to deal with this mechanic". In a sandbox game its entirely "this mechanic should not exist". While you could theoretically attack a bunch of structures that doesn't negate the problem. Unless you are talking about attacking hundreds of structures it would be trivial for a 40k man alliance to go check which ones are actually under attack since they have more than 24 hours to do it. Sandbox = player made content not server made themepark ride.

2. In real life I could pop your bonnet, disconnect the alarm, steal your car and it wouldn't magically become invulnerable for 24 hours while you get a gang of mates to come beat me up. Not that I'd turn up 24 hours later. Trying to equate real life in any way with this mechanic is ludicrous.

3. There is no such thing as Malcanis law - its made up nonsense. This is already been argued to death. Its fallacy to try to say that this would hurt smaller organizations. It wouldnt. Smaller organizations actually live in and around their space. They would certainly notice a big red REINFORCED when they logged in, much more reliably than a big alliance / coalition player that lives in Tenal and has systems in Period Basis they never visit. If you're incapable of noticing your under attack then you don't deserve to have that space. Pretty simple concept.

4. High sec carebears would not be affected at all. In most cases if high sec carebears and small corporations are under attack, firstly they would notice it, since they don't own 1000+ systems. Secondly in most cases noticing it won't do them much good at all. If they're under attack they're likely not going to be able to defend it anyway - given that they're small and carebear.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#4 - 2014-03-31 13:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
i wold agree only if said mail were actually working and accurate.

received a mail a few month ago about a pos of mine being under attack, so i checked it right away.

first mail is supposed to be sent right after the pos (or any of it's mod) drop1%, yet between the moment i received the mail, and the moment i showed in pos, it was RFd.

i travelled in helios, in low sec, and was 2 jumps away.

i received the 2nd mail while entering the system, they were 10 attackers in stealth bombers, my pos was medium, 2 mails are not even 2 minutes appart.

now i thought that maybe they had dreads and spotted me, thus jumped out (why not after all, already did that myself), that would explain....

but no, i spoted them attacking another of my POS (very similar than the first), with their 10 bombers, and sat in the pos the whole time they rf'd it and yet again, mail first mail claiming pos was 99% shield came about 2 min before the pos was RF'd......
do the math, they were shooting at the pos for A FUCKIN WHILE before the mail actually came.

petitionned the thing, CCP's answer as usual, htfu the logs show nothing blabla....Roll

any POS manager will probably tell you the same, POS mail work....when they want, i you rely on them, your POS is likely to be out of fuel for example, because 20% of the time, you will never receive any mail, or the mail will have such a delay that you won't be able to respond in time (for attack)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-03-31 14:31:57 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
i wold agree only if said mail were actually working and accurate.

received a mail a few month ago about a pos of mine being under attack, so i checked it right away.

first mail is supposed to be sent right after the pos (or any of it's mod) drop1%, yet between the moment i received the mail, and the moment i showed in pos, it was RFd.

i travelled in helios, in low sec, and was 2 jumps away.

i received the 2nd mail while entering the system, they were 10 attackers in stealth bombers, my pos was medium, 2 mails are not even 2 minutes appart.

now i thought that maybe they had dreads and spotted me, thus jumped out (why not after all, already did that myself), that would explain....

but no, i spoted them attacking another of my POS (very similar than the first), with their 10 bombers, and sat in the pos the whole time they rf'd it and yet again, mail first mail claiming pos was 99% shield came about 2 min before the pos was RF'd......
do the math, they were shooting at the pos for A FUCKIN WHILE before the mail actually came.

petitionned the thing, CCP's answer as usual, htfu the logs show nothing blabla....Roll

any POS manager will probably tell you the same, POS mail work....when they want, i you rely on them, your POS is likely to be out of fuel for example, because 20% of the time, you will never receive any mail, or the mail will have such a delay that you won't be able to respond in time (for attack)

Hmm that's interesting. Could have a been a new 'undocumented feature' that crept in recently? :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)