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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1681 - 2014-03-30 22:22:08 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
Several point that I disagree with:

1- currently the only max refine skill players (if any) r in null . Bcz in hisec u don't need a fully trained char for perfect refine
2- with the current changes NO ONE in hi sec would spend 130 days of train to get a refine rate that they can get in a small POS with no need for skills
3- this goes against CCP aim for the changes, which is to encourage ppl to train their skills , rendering the whole change moot (btw u ve never addressed this point! instead u created aim and goals that we're not proposed by CCP)
4- I m sry but as an industrialist a 2.9% additional refine rate is a HUGE advantage over those without it, without mentioning the 15-20 mil advantage over BS hull null sec industrialist would have (numbers by Myanna)
5- I don't understand why u say nothing tangible would be gained by skills affecting a POS... EVE is based on skills and till this point u have not named ONE career that skills do not affect positively , why start with refining
6- if 2.9 percent r not important why ppl pay 200-300 mil to get an implant that increases mining from 3%to 5%



1. Likely mostly correct.

But there are plenty of players that have low end ores maxed and even more that have level 4 because for T2 mining crystals. There are also players that wend to null and now live in high sec. I never wrote anything contrary to this, maybe you want to state the actual thing you disagree with?

2. I clearly stated in my (previous) post(s) that a base skill requirement to use the structures is not a bad idea.

Level 3 or 4 for reprocessing and reprocessing efficiency. That is a huge difference form thew 130 days you pulled form somewhere else.


3. CCP stated they no longer want to see maximum achievable efficiency (100%) at low skill levels, thus removing the need to train further.

POS refining does not give maximum achievable efficiency!
Acquiring max efficiency requires sov + outpost + 3 upgrades + max skills + 4% implant.


4. If you are an industrialist, its a poor one.

* Do all your minerals come from refining yourself?
* In the new system, you likely just have to refine 2-3 compressed ores: Veld, Scordite, Plagioclase
* The mineral content in these tree ores is good for the majority of the mineral volume products need.
* The rest you can move the old fashion way and buy from market, where miners refined for you.

The minerals from these ores are not the full cost picture of most items and ships you can produce!
Hence a 2% difference will not translate into a 2% cost difference!


5. Skills still do affect you.

If you decide to keep your industry in a station, then by all means, you are free to close the gap with the mobile refine. It gives you some advantages over POS refining. Yield is just not one of them, but the difference is small enough. Just train some low end ore processing skills to 5 and you are golden.


6. People buy many things with an return of investment (ROI) of like 3 decades.

First of all, your numbers are way off, but i will entertain you here.

Other stuff people do:

Paying over 1b for that other extra 5% mining implant.
Paying hundreds of millions for a harvester mining drone?
Paying more for a BPO that has silly ME with terrible ROI.


People are people and do stupid it because:

1. they are either stupid
2. like maxing things out as a play style
3. like the feel of appearing better in something then others.

But you all this around and use the fact that many of these people exist is proof there must be a good reason...well there often is not \o/.


first i thought we r having a polite, rational, and mature conversation.
what i am good at or not, is none of your concern or the point of this dev blog. but thanks anyways....

1- having skill at lvl 4 is not the point, it is raising them from 4 to 5 that takes the largest amount of time. for a discussion of how long that would take and where i got my numbers plz see this blog post
http://nosygamer.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-look-at-nerf-for-ore-refining-in-eve.html

2- skill requirement is a good step, but it does not solve the problem a high lvl skilled char in high sec (or one who wants to train for max skills)

3- wrg, a POS is max refine in high sec. most of my dicusssion is abotu high sec....

4- yes i mine, refine and build. when i need minerals i place buy orders in my region for unprocessed ore. i refine them myself. however, if u use a program or site to calculate ur profit margin, u ll see that most ships and t1 modules have a 5-20% profit margin. if i have to buy from the market, refined minerals, that would certainly eat in this profit and further anyone with a POS will have a straight advantage and would be able to under cut my prices. saying that i only have to buy a few minerals and not all, is not a good argument. u are trying to ignore the problem by focusing on small details.

5- still waiting for that career where no skill is better than skil...

6- u argument is that 2.9% (u keep saying 2% , if u wanna round it s 3%) is nothing to have a fit over. well i was just pointing that most eve player would pay hundred of millions for a 3% advantage, in mining, or even in PVPing. so idiocy (again i don't understand this disregard to other players) is not a fact here even glorious PVPers think 3% is somethign important....

thank you for your input...
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1682 - 2014-03-30 23:33:24 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Would it help to know some CSM are still following along?

m

If your still following along it would be very nice if the Rorqual got some love as part of the deal with this expansion. They literately ran off with its cookies per say with the coming expansion.


I agree, taking away the main reason for Rorquals existence was kind of mean and I do encourage CCP to either repurpose or 'put that back'

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
Herd Of Cats
#1683 - 2014-03-31 01:04:51 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
How hard the reprocessing of modules should be hit is something CCP can judge better then either of us. They got raw numbers, can project scenarios on how it affect the population and how it ties in with their other near future plans.

You actually mean this? It's not like there is a "right" rate at which scrapmetal should be processed that CCP needs to "figure out". They can set it to whetever they wish and the players shall adapt. The debate here is about that hard capping it at 55% hits the salvagers (like Pro Synergy) so hard it doesn't make sense (anyone thinks salvagers make too much profit at the moment?)... I believe it's possible to fix what's broken (wasteless conversion of minerals/mods) without breaking the current profession of salvaging. In other words: let's not forget about the salvagers and make sure that the greatly reduced scrapmetal processing efficiency doesn't mean they all of a sudden lose a significant portion of their income. If we nerf the scrapmetal processing as suggested, then give them more loot to collect, increase the mineral yield from non-manufacturable mods, or something...

I won't bother responding to the rest... it's rather pointless to argue with someone who suggests that hisec is "densely populated area" and that nullsec is somehow the only part of the EVE universe that's allowed/supposed to evolve (lore-wise) in time.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1684 - 2014-03-31 01:50:17 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Like building capitals in low sec is risk-free.

Um, please tell me where the risk is in building capitals in lowsec. Hint: there isn't any at the moment.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1685 - 2014-03-31 02:11:50 UTC
Hair Loss wrote:

If somewhere along the line I've lost the EVE plot please let me know - I've always played the game for the risk vs reward style and if the game is changing from that please let me know.

Risk VS Reward in Sov Nulsec = SRP. These changes are the equivalent of CCP giving all of Nulsec SRP in the form of cheaper mineral acquisition due to the Scrap Reprocessing nerf.
425 rail compression for transport - removed, ore compression and extra refining yield - replacement.


The scrap reprocessing nerf came about because CCP wants to be able to remove "extra materials" from ship blueprints as added during ship balancing. Any other nerfs or benefits from the changes are minor and this will achieve CCP's goal.

*Read the Dev Blog carefully, it is all explained very nicely in there. They just muddled the real reason for the changes and tried to make it look like a fair and positive (for all) change.
Nerfs to highsec refining = balancing the amount of minerals nulsec gets to equal what 425mm rail guns give now.

So no Hair Loss, you have not lost the EVE Plot, it has just changed yet again.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
#1686 - 2014-03-31 02:43:17 UTC
Not that anybody at CCP is even listening at this point but....damn it I'm ticked off....Thank you CFCFozzie and company for pulling the rug out from underneath of me yet again.....Am so frustrated, it's presented as this big pile of dogshite that we will eat and like....well, pardon me if I throw the plate right back at you!!!!! EvilEvilEvil

And the Nerfs just keep on comin....how about content.....how about a freaking buff to salvagers???? You guys suck!!!!! Damn you!!!
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#1687 - 2014-03-31 06:54:12 UTC
Hmmm....I realize that the real thrust of the blog is "embrace the coming changes or die".

But "100% reprocessing everywhere" is not true now (blog included ore refining as reprocessing). Plenty of high sec NPC stations only have 35% or even 25% base efficiency. So even with 8+ standing, 5 in refining and refinery efficiency... you don't get 100% refines. Even the specialty ore reprocessing skills won't get you there at a mere level 3. Not sure if level 5 does at stations below 35% base.

Its does seem true that attaining perfect refines will be much harder. More skills even at best facilities. Also maybe the outcome is supposed to be that no matter your skills 100% refines will ONLY be attainable if you join a null sec mega-coalition. Because of course frontiers are the only places that commonly employ cutting edge technology.

And moving a constant (0.375) in a line of code (refine %) to different line of code (minerals in ore)....uhm? Not real urgent to 99.5% of players who never see either line of code.

So I am guessing probably all that is a bit of harmless carried away CCP marketing distraction. Also gives the 3rd party EVE tools makers something to change and separates actively maintained tools from previously stable semi-retired tools. Maybe that was the real CCP point -- weed out tools to a select active few with new nicer interfaces without openly starting legal action to boot them.


As for changes of substance...
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#1688 - 2014-03-31 07:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Changes of substance...

#1 A better blunt tool for forcing players to low sec and null mining would be to just

(a) close availability of many high NPC reprocessing facilities. Most stations NOT having a public reprocessing center.
Maybe even open NPC corps to alliance with player corps to get access. Draw player corps into FW maybe.

(b) REPROCESSING SLOTS & QUEUE for all reprocessing.
People would need to build POS refining arrays to bypass the back log. And once corps own POS they start getting ready to leave high sec.

(c) raise fees and % standing taxes for those public NPC reprocessing center remaining.

(d) NPC Noob corps would be an exception to high fees but players would get kicked from NPC noob corp after
so many Skill Points, age of toon, or online hours...or simply reaching a certain % reprocessing skill factor (or certain PVE/PVP skills too). Plus of course NPC Noob Corps are rather rare.


#2 Current POS yields are ridiculously low and time consuming -- BUT I am not sure the new pendulum is not swinging too far the other way. I sort of favor T1 POS refining yields maxing out at 85%-90% no matter what the skills. Thus compression is still very useful. POS refining arrays should not differ much in efficiency based purely on processing capacity (5% maybe). But I can see refining array efficiency being graded for the different types of ore. I can even see having T2 refining arrays with say 5% more yield. But outposts and true player/NPC stations should definitely have better efficiency % possible AND more capacity.

#3 Again instant refining/reprocessing makes no more sense than instant manufacturing or labs. So dividing total refining capacity into slots like labs and factories sort of makes sense. Each slot being able to flow through a certain volume of ore or modules per minute leading to jobs lasting a certain time and only POS really having much concern with hangar storage. Different refining structures MIGHT have improved ore volume flow as well as different numbers of slots.


IdeaIdeaIdea Anyone who does lab research can testify about how successful the slot system is in getting people into low sec and investing in POS -- so reapply idea that to refining/reprocessing. AttentionAttentionAttention
Fulgrim Noxios
Myech Industries
#1689 - 2014-03-31 11:17:30 UTC
huge boost for high sec gankers...
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1690 - 2014-03-31 12:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Many points were raised, so in an effort to refocus the discussion after more than 80 pages and hopefully get some response from CCP, let me try to list the main contentious points and some proposed solutions:


1- the nerf to scrap metal processing was the main issue for many players. Salvagers and looters (there is several player corp focused on looting and salvaging and then refining modules of other players missions) felt that this change destroyed their play style and nerfed missioning income as a whole. This also has the unit ended consequence of raising minerals price, by removing the minerals resulting from reprocessing modules.

Proposed solutions:
a- raising the reprocess rate to 70-80 , rather than the proposed 50-55. It could be done by introducing A new skill, a new advanced metal processing array

2- many felt that giving null sec refineries a refine rate of 86.8 compared to the 72.4 or 75.3 in a hi sec POS , is an unfair advantage to null sec and completely destroys low sec capital industry (which refine rate tops at 78.1 in a POS)
Arguments of risk vs reward were countered by the blue doughnut and the relative safety of null sec areas controlled by the big corporations.

Proposed solutions:
a- creating an advanced tier of refining in high sec that requires more skill or standings, helping high skilled refining char stay in high sec.

b- lowering the null sec advantage and raising the low sec NPC base refine.
c- giving higher yield in station based on higher standings ( currently no return after u reach 6.67 standing)

3- the fact that POS reprocessing arrays do not take skills into account was perceived as going against the aim of CCP to encourage players to skill up to get to max refine. Currently with full skills and the implant gets u only 72.4 in hi sec station, while a POS array gives u 75.3 and 78.1 in low sec with NO skills. So instead of pushing players to spend months raising their skills they ll just get a POS. With this sys max refine skill char have no real use except in null sec

Proposed solution:
a- applying skill to POS arrays oat least a minimum requirement
b- creating a new refining deployable that takes skill into account and have a higher refine lvl but that has low HP and no reinforcement timer ( susceptible to ganking and which drops more than 50% when it goes boom thus following the risk vs reward mantra)


4- no love for new players. With the changes new players cannot enter refining,(POS arrays r also beyond their means) most carrer a low skill char can enter them and his effectivity will rise with his skills and time. Refining doesn't follow that. A low lvl player would lose money refining and is better off buying minerals off the market.

Proposed solution:
a- a refining possibility like the venture to mining would be great. Maybe a refining deployable that starts with high refining yield but rises with skills too


5- compression is still unbalanced. These changes rendered the roqueral obsolete and having the high sec compression in a POS complicates the process (just imagine how many trips of freighters filled with ore one has to make to fill just one haul of compressed ore (26 or so)

Proposed solution:
a- implement the future love the roqueral was going to get in parallel with these changes or at least the compression part of them
b- allow access to POS compression arrays from stations (like other arrays, u input from station and get the output from the POS)

6- throughout eve implants should give u more than the standard rate. Refining should also fall into this. Having to skill up AND buy an implant to get old refine rates limit gameplay and possibilities for creativity, and force players to have a clone just for refining...

Proposed solution:
a- max refine in station should be attainable without the implant.


Plz point out any further points or solution
Thank u
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1691 - 2014-03-31 13:45:52 UTC
Perhaps CCP could follow a different path for the Scrap Metal Processing that allows those that trained it further and with more lawless space involved a benefit.

If you do not possess the skill, then you just can not reprocess anything at all no matter your location.

Each trained level allows a 12% to 16% accumulative return and opens up the ability to extract further minerals (and items). That is, each trained level could be set-up to return its lower level "rewards" plus more as I present the following:

At level one - Tritanium only.
At level two - Level one rewards plus Pyerite and Mexallon.
At level three - Level one and level two rewards plus Isogen and Nocxium.
At level four - Level one, level two, and level three rewards plus Zydrine and Megacyte.
At level five - Level one, level two, level three, and level four rewards plus all the fancy extras and whatnot returned from tech 2 goods, etc.

The location of your refining should play a part too.

In a npc station, you would get 12% return per level.
In a player owned station, you would get 14% return per level.
In those fancy egg things deep in null space (forgot the name), you would get 16% return per level.

Then the actual location could play a role too.

In high security space, you would get 0% bonus per level.
In low security space, you would get a 1% bonus per level.
In null and worm hold space, you would get a 2 % bonus per level.

Example: a player with skill level one trained using a high security npc station would get only ((12% + 0%)*1) or 12% of the total amount of Tritanium as part of the reprocessing. Any and all other minerals would be lost.

Example: a player with skill level three trained using their player own station located in low security space would get ((14% + 1%)*3) or 45% each of the total amounts of Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, and Nocxium as part of the reprocessing. Any and all other minerals would be lost.

Example: a player with skill level five trained using those deep space stations things located in null security space would get ((16% + 2%)*5) or 90% each of everything within item as part of the reprocessing.

While I did not do the hard maths, I hope the general idea is gleamed.

Sorry if this has already been rehashed earlier in this thread.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1692 - 2014-03-31 14:24:16 UTC
Update:


  • Unrefined Alchemy materials have been boosted by 81.81% next to TQ values to account for the 45% reprocessing nerf (since it's neither ore and ice, it doesn't benefit from reprocessing skills, only scrapmetal processing)
  • Plan for Minmatar outpost to give 52% reprocessing rate by default, and 54% when upgraded to tier 1. Other values are unchanged.
  • We're still investigating and pushing for Starbase Reprocessing skills to take player reprocessing skills into account. More on that when we get more info.
  • We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.


Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1693 - 2014-03-31 14:51:48 UTC
Any chance of gas compression?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1694 - 2014-03-31 14:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.
Good idea! Watch out for Pyroxeres (49.950 units of ore inside) and Crokite (1250 units of ore inside) block conversion, though. Those blocks are tricky Bear


Edit: will you go with the compression ratio of 24 (at 86,8296% reprocessing in a fully upgraded Minmatar Outpost) for all ores?

NPEISDRIP

Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1695 - 2014-03-31 15:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
Mining with more risk and more reward

Have you considered having a deploy-able structure for compression?


Function:

  1. deployed (-0.4 or lower)
  2. fueled (as to not replace the other forms of compression)
  3. filled with uncompressed ore
  4. emptied (any party can empty the device similar to a jet can)
  5. un-anchored


  • Anchored on grid and replaced the jet can would allow a mining operation to make less hauling trips

  • it's anchored status make it vulnerable if the miner are engaged as they would have to un-anchor and pick it up before warping away.

  • For this balance of efficiency vs risk, they should only be deployable in 0.4 or lower space and should have a reasonable time to un-anchor.


The deployable could have several meta levels to expand on the risk vs reward.

Some meta variable could affect:
-fuel usage (a high meta mobile compressor could have almost all fuel requirements removed but the risk of using it makes it a gamble)
-cargo hold
-anchor/un-anchor rate
-compression delay(having a delay to increase the vulnerability of the deployable and contents)
-tractor beam (expensive variant or higher meta compressor pulls jet cans to it, loots and compresses. To prevent cans which you are trying to fill being pulled straight away make the compressor have a delay before locking and is unable to tractor cans locked by a player).
Inspiration
#1696 - 2014-03-31 15:37:20 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
thank you for your input...


You can touch the form (polite) stuff all you want, but if you desire a meaningful discussion about new content, try to understand what people write and where they are coming from. If you cannot and just keep stuck in your current way of doing things and relate new content to this then you will always fail to see the bigger picture and fail to understand arguments and input.

As a result you call other peoples arguments 'details', implying that they do not matter that much and they must fail to see the bigger picture. This is insulting and certainly a waste of my personal time.

Then you demand an answer on your question as if I am lacking in providing input on the matter. You imply that your way of looking at skills and thus your question is relevant and overruling all other possible arguments, even if it has been debunked several times already. You are just repeating it to make me look lacking instead.

Your replies do nothing to diminish my arguments and you simply ignored them, only to fall back on your own static view of the now and how changes affect you. You treat everything others answer as needing your approval or else it is invalid. You deliberately keep repeating answered questions as if never answered so people reading your reply assume the other guy is an ass. For they same reason you touch on for subject of being polite... And BTW, calling people that do stupid things...stupid...is not a bad thing, it is simply telling the truth!

I think your way of discussion falls under the TROLL category...so i am going to stop replying to you.

I am serious!

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1697 - 2014-03-31 15:47:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:


  • Unrefined Alchemy materials have been boosted by 81.81% next to TQ values to account for the 45% reprocessing nerf (since it's neither ore and ice, it doesn't benefit from reprocessing skills, only scrapmetal processing)
  • Plan for Minmatar outpost to give 52% reprocessing rate by default, and 54% when upgraded to tier 1. Other values are unchanged.
  • We're still investigating and pushing for Starbase Reprocessing skills to take player reprocessing skills into account. More on that when we get more info.
  • We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.


Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

Thanks for the update. It's my sincere hope that a solution can be reached for skills affecting POS reproccessing.

Has there been any thought given to allowing compression at stations? Allowing compression in this manner will lubricate the barrier to entry in the new face of industry.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Inspiration
#1698 - 2014-03-31 15:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Red Deck wrote:
I won't bother responding to the rest... it's rather pointless to argue with someone who suggests that hisec is "densely populated area" and that nullsec is somehow the only part of the EVE universe that's allowed/supposed to evolve (lore-wise) in time.


Your jealousy about null blinds you for the changes and improvements that are coming to HIGH sec industry. Do not put this shortcoming on my shoulders, that is not only wrong, but also rude!

Oh and what makes you think systems do not have populations? The back stories are very clear on this, even recent Sansha abducted millions of people from planets. It is not just capsuleers that are about...empire is high-sec is empire for a reason!

I am serious!

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1699 - 2014-03-31 15:58:48 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
thank you for your input...


You can touch the form (polite) stuff all you want, but if you desire a meaningful discussion about new content, try to understand what people write and where they are coming from. If you cannot and just keep stuck in your current way of doing things and relate new content to this then you will always fail to see the bigger picture and fail to understand arguments and input.

As a result you call other peoples arguments 'details', implying that they do not matter that much and they must fail to see the bigger picture. This is insulting and certainly a waste of my personal time.

Then you demand an answer on your question as if I am lacking in providing input on the matter. You imply that your way of looking at skills and thus your question is relevant and overruling all other possible arguments, even if it has been debunked several times already. You are just repeating it to make me look lacking instead.

Your replies do nothing to diminish my arguments and you simply ignored them, only to fall back on your own static view of the now and how changes affect you. You treat everything others answer as needing your approval or else it is invalid. You deliberately keep repeating answered questions as if never answered so people reading your reply assume the other guy is an ass. For they same reason you touch on for subject of being polite... And BTW, calling people that do stupid things...stupid...is not a bad thing, it is simply telling the truth!

I think your way of discussion falls under the TROLL category...so i am going to stop replying to you.


as you wish, u r free to do what u want as long as u r polite.
but u never answered which career is better off with no skills...

btw it seems that CCP agree that POS arrays should be affected by skills ... hmm
does their argument fall under the TROLL category too?
and if u are asking me to understand what u r saying and where u r coming from, why dont u do the same?
a lot of ppl in here expressed their objection to scrap processing and not skill at POS u dismissed their argument by making RL analogies.... which do not apply in this case bcz of what CCP stated in their argument for the changes.

anyways, i agreed with some of your points and i found some other intresting, shame you can't find some of my arguments the same
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1700 - 2014-03-31 16:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Update:


  • Unrefined Alchemy materials have been boosted by 81.81% next to TQ values to account for the 45% reprocessing nerf (since it's neither ore and ice, it doesn't benefit from reprocessing skills, only scrapmetal processing)
  • Plan for Minmatar outpost to give 52% reprocessing rate by default, and 54% when upgraded to tier 1. Other values are unchanged.
  • We're still investigating and pushing for Starbase Reprocessing skills to take player reprocessing skills into account. More on that when we get more info.
  • We are improving the way compression is going to work: instead of requiring various volumes of ore to compress into 1 unit of compress ore, we will now have 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore with the same output ratios, with compressed ore volume dictating the compression ratio. This is a lot more intuitive to players to use and simplifying the whole thing further. When this goes live a script will be run on TQ to make sure compressed ore stacks are migrated properly.


Example:


  • BEFORE: to compress Veldspar, I need 166,500 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with a 257m3 volume. The compressed Veldspar would yield 690,500 Tritanium for a mineral volume of 6095m3. Compression ratio is around 23.3 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).

  • AFTER: to compress Veldspar, I need 100 units of Veldspar, then right-click the stack to get 1 unit of compressed veldspar with 0.15m3. The compressed Veldspar would yield 415 Tritanium for a mineral volum of 4.15m3. Compression ratio is around 24 (with 86.8% reprocessing rate).



originally,
"Amarr, Caldari and Gallente outposts can be upgraded to further increase ore and ice reprocessing by 2%, 4% and 7% (for a total of 52%, 54% and 57%)
Minmatar outposts can be upgraded to add further 3%, 7% and 10% on ore and ice reprocessing rates (for a total of 53%, 57% and 60%)"

so now Minmatar starts at 52% then 54%, the remaining tiers r 57 and 60 , or we add a further 7% then 10% on base to end up with 59% then 62% as max?