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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#821 - 2014-03-30 08:36:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol

Day 0 Advice for New Players
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#822 - 2014-03-30 08:36:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So srs now, who here believes that this will seriously affect hi-sec mission runners as an aggregate demographic?


I do. A significant proportion of hi sec mission runners gain income from loot & salvage in some way. Some do it themselves, some only loot the more valuable wrecks, some contract out to corporations like Pro Synergy.



So, you actually have those numbers, right? You're not just assuming that to try and put weight of numbers behind your opinion?


Go and sit out the front of a mission hub. Watch how many of the mission runners come back from a mission then head out in a noctis. Then join Pro Synergy and see how many mission runners contract their salvage to the contract salvagers. Observe how many mission runners deploy MTUs in missions (they might not salvage anything, which means that the loot being worth less is going to reduce their income more).

Sure, I don't have hard numbers, but I figure somewhere around a third of the mission runners in hubs like Lanngisi, Apanake or the hi sec part of Black Rise are at least looting their missions, if not salvaging them. I'll point out there that about 90% of the value of a mission comes from the battleship wrecks, so if someone in a marauder is only looting & salvaging the battleship wrecks, they're part of this corpus of missioners whose income will be reduced.

I'm not trying to put "weight of numbers behind my opinion". I'm just trying to communicate that there will be a lot of angry mission runners who don't follow the forums who will be getting a nasty surprise when the change hits. CSM will have a better idea than me, since they're privy to details that CCP is willing to share thanks to the NDA. CCP should also have some idea of what portion of the player base click through the announcements on the launcher or at least read the dev blogs.


They wont even notice.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#823 - 2014-03-30 08:39:58 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol


Why not?

Do industry players not deserve greater rewards for taking on greater risks?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#824 - 2014-03-30 08:40:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except High Sec does not offer the same as null even if the refine rates are equal.
Null Sec has better ores, better PI, Moon Goo, faster production lines in the stations. Just to list a few the only of the basic industry resource advantages they have. If every single aspect of Null Sec is better
…then it is as it should be: player-controlled space that demands more engagement and higher costs also provides more player freedom and offers more rewards for that effort.

The problem is the same as it always were: highsec industry is free, completely safe, logistically trivial, 100% efficient, and universally available. There is no way to make null offer the better deal it should offer without first creating a margin where that “better” state can exist. Better than free would require them to introduce legal duping, as would better than 100% efficient; better than universally available makes no difference and is a meaningless measure; better than completely safe can't be done (nor should it); better than trivial logistics breaks the game in horrible ways.

So the first order of business to have a balanced game — one where actually putting some effort into it yields suitable rewards — is to bring that baseline down a notch or eleven. Some of it can't be fixed because it's just inherent to highsec, but that's ok, those can be the specific advantages highsec do offer. The others, however, will then have to be skewed towards different parts of space to provide an equally large advantage for those areas. All this change does is fiddle a little with the logistics…

Mara Rinn wrote:
Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita
Why not?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#825 - 2014-03-30 08:52:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Do industry players not deserve greater rewards for taking on greater risks?


LOL. What risks are you taking by manufacturing in an outpost rather than Jita?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#826 - 2014-03-30 08:58:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Do industry players not deserve greater rewards for taking on greater risks?


LOL. What risks are you taking by manufacturing in an outpost rather than Jita?


The loss of your BPOs, Your supply ships getting blown up, your goods getting blown up when transporting them to market.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#827 - 2014-03-30 09:00:35 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Do industry players not deserve greater rewards for taking on greater risks?


LOL. What risks are you taking by manufacturing in an outpost rather than Jita?


Because you mostly only die in highsec if you're stupid?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#828 - 2014-03-30 09:10:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Do industry players not deserve greater rewards for taking on greater risks?


LOL. What risks are you taking by manufacturing in an outpost rather than Jita?


...Your supply ships getting blown up, your goods getting blown up when transporting them to market.


the same happens every day in high-sec

just passed Njaria (or how is name of a 0.5 system between Jita and Amarr) and found lots of CONCORD ships on both gates.....

On the other hand i have spent like 6 or more months manufacturing outpost in DroneLand back in 2011. Used 3 outposts to build needed parts. Used 3 systems to do intensive PI. Visiting 6*3*3 planets in 3 systems every day to collect/drop materials, restart factories, etc...
Orca from start
Freighter on parts build stage

And i haven't lost any ship doing this.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#829 - 2014-03-30 09:14:57 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
On the other hand i have spent like 6 or more months manufacturing outpost in DroneLand back in 2011. Used 3 outposts to build needed parts. Used 3 systems to do intensive PI. Visiting 6*3*3 planets in 3 systems every day to collect/drop materials, restart factories, etc...
Orca from start
Freighter on parts build stage

And i haven't lost any ship doing this.

On the other hand what? How many have you lost in highsec? How much did (or would) it cost people to create those losses for you? How many systems do you need to do the same in high? What are the chances of losing all your BPOs when doing it in high?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#830 - 2014-03-30 09:20:38 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

the same happens every day in high-sec

just passed Njaria (or how is name of a 0.5 system between Jita and Amarr) and found lots of CONCORD ships on both gates.....

On the other hand i have spent like 6 or more months manufacturing outpost in DroneLand back in 2011. Used 3 outposts to build needed parts. Used 3 systems to do intensive PI. Visiting 6*3*3 planets in 3 systems every day to collect/drop materials, restart factories, etc...
Orca from start
Freighter on parts build stage

And i haven't lost any ship doing this.


only the very stupid die in high sec. There is literally no way you should ever lose your BPOs in high sec. In 8 years I have had one gank attempt made on one of my haulers and it failed.

Null on the other hand you have to deal with blops gangs, bombers, bubble camps, fuel costs, titan drivebys etc etc all without having concord to protect you and a station that can be attacked, taken and block you from ever accessing your BPO cash and other assets.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#831 - 2014-03-30 09:23:35 UTC
Just checking in, everything ok here?

Everyone got tea, coffee?

Anyone need a pillow?

No?

Good good carry on

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#832 - 2014-03-30 09:29:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So srs now, who here believes that this will seriously affect hi-sec mission runners as an aggregate demographic?


I do. A significant proportion of hi sec mission runners gain income from loot & salvage in some way. Some do it themselves, some only loot the more valuable wrecks, some contract out to corporations like Pro Synergy.



So, you actually have those numbers, right? You're not just assuming that to try and put weight of numbers behind your opinion?


Go and sit out the front of a mission hub. Watch how many of the mission runners come back from a mission then head out in a noctis. Then join Pro Synergy and see how many mission runners contract their salvage to the contract salvagers. Observe how many mission runners deploy MTUs in missions (they might not salvage anything, which means that the loot being worth less is going to reduce their income more).



I just decided to trial this, bearing in mind I have only 1 race to play with (gurista). I used a 1190 dps dominix to shoot 1 hour of ports, I wound up with 60mil bounties (something like 45 BS wrecks), and it took me 33 minutes to clean up the 7 wreck fields, for 27mil of loot, including 13.5m of meta4s and salvage. ie in 1.5hrs I produced ~13.5m of melt.

Almost nobody shoots continuous 60m/hr bounties in highsec, and a drake would be lucky to shoot 15m bounties in a hour, and will literally have quarter the wrecks. In case of gurista, the single most valuable pile was salvage - tripped power circuits.

My experience with other races says they get more melt and more salvage value, but my experience with other races in missions is you don't shoot 60m worth of wrecks in an hour in highsec very often either. All the extra warps, the stargate jumps and the smaller field sizes conspire to bring it well down - the compensation being LP.

Quote:


Sure, I don't have hard numbers, but I figure somewhere around a third of the mission runners in hubs like Lanngisi, Apanake or the hi sec part of Black Rise are at least looting their missions, if not salvaging them. I'll point out there that about 90% of the value of a mission comes from the battleship wrecks, so if someone in a marauder is only looting & salvaging the battleship wrecks, they're part of this corpus of missioners whose income will be reduced.



Given the above, who the hell is looting in black rise where they'll likely get gurista wrecks, over getting more LP.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#833 - 2014-03-30 09:52:00 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
I just decided to trial this, bearing in mind I have only 1 race to play with (gurista). I used a 1190 dps dominix to shoot 1 hour of ports, I wound up with 60mil bounties (something like 45 BS wrecks), and it took me 33 minutes to clean up the 7 wreck fields, for 27mil of loot, including 13.5m of meta4s and salvage. ie in 1.5hrs I produced ~13.5m of melt.

Almost nobody shoots continuous 60m/hr bounties in highsec, and a drake would be lucky to shoot 15m bounties in a hour, and will literally have quarter the wrecks. In case of gurista, the single most valuable pile was salvage - tripped power circuits.

My experience with other races says they get more melt and more salvage value, but my experience with other races in missions is you don't shoot 60m worth of wrecks in an hour in highsec very often either. All the extra warps, the stargate jumps and the smaller field sizes conspire to bring it well down - the compensation being LP.
Tauranon.
If you still have that loot, can you work how how much value is in salvage and items that are more valuable for sale directly over reprocessing, and how much is the actual junk? Remember, items that are being sold on the market or actual salvage components are not being changed in value, it's only the junk that is too cheap to sell that gets reprocessed, so meta 1 and 2 and half of the meta 3s essentially.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#834 - 2014-03-30 10:31:08 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol


Why?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kyperion
#835 - 2014-03-30 10:39:21 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Meanwhile; in space... the damsel is in inexplicable distress for the ******* **** damn ******* time again... ******* ***** won't learn....

This can be seen as my response to this entire thread....

Nothing else matters.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#836 - 2014-03-30 10:41:29 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Meanwhile; in space... the damsel is in inexplicable distress for the ******* **** damn ******* time again... ******* ***** won't learn....

This can be seen as my response to this entire thread....

Nothing else matters.


Terrible song

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#837 - 2014-03-30 12:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
I just decided to trial this, bearing in mind I have only 1 race to play with (gurista). I used a 1190 dps dominix to shoot 1 hour of ports, I wound up with 60mil bounties (something like 45 BS wrecks), and it took me 33 minutes to clean up the 7 wreck fields, for 27mil of loot, including 13.5m of meta4s and salvage. ie in 1.5hrs I produced ~13.5m of melt.

Almost nobody shoots continuous 60m/hr bounties in highsec, and a drake would be lucky to shoot 15m bounties in a hour, and will literally have quarter the wrecks. In case of gurista, the single most valuable pile was salvage - tripped power circuits.

My experience with other races says they get more melt and more salvage value, but my experience with other races in missions is you don't shoot 60m worth of wrecks in an hour in highsec very often either. All the extra warps, the stargate jumps and the smaller field sizes conspire to bring it well down - the compensation being LP.
Tauranon.
If you still have that loot, can you work how how much value is in salvage and items that are more valuable for sale directly over reprocessing, and how much is the actual junk? Remember, items that are being sold on the market or actual salvage components are not being changed in value, it's only the junk that is too cheap to sell that gets reprocessed, so meta 1 and 2 and half of the meta 3s essentially.


it was maybe 1m ,12.5m was salvage.

That ratio is hard to break (for gurista) I'd imagine. ie 60m bounties, 13m salvage, 13m melt, random saleables. Doesn't actually matter how slow you are either, all that happens is being really slow means the pickup part takes less time relatively.

Each other race probably has its own ratio - ie drones 60m bounties, 20m salvage, 0m melt etc, and one imagines that Mario would have to be in a location whos rats have more melt (ie a full hour and a half on gurista gave me a vexors worth of melt), and lowsec doesn't have ihubs to insta replace the anomalies either.
Deunan Tenephais
#838 - 2014-03-30 12:41:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol


Why?

Because it's normal that you make better deals at the main trade hub of the whole game, that's why; another way would mean no profit margin for trading and the end of it.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#839 - 2014-03-30 12:43:19 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol


Why?

Because it's normal that you make better deals at the main trade hub of the whole game, that's why; another way would mean no profit margin for trading and the end of it.


The Trade Hub did not exist before market forces caused it to exist.

It is only a hub while it is useful for it to be so.

If there was a better place to do business, the trade would move there.

There is no reason to arbitrarily say that Jita should always be the place to go.

A lot of people these days stay away from it in fact

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Deunan Tenephais
#840 - 2014-03-30 12:50:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faster production lines means nothing if it is still cheaper to buy in jita and import than to build in null.


Null certainly shouldn't be buffed to the point that it's cheaper to produce in null and jump freight product to Jita Lol


Why?

Because it's normal that you make better deals at the main trade hub of the whole game, that's why; another way would mean no profit margin for trading and the end of it.


The Trade Hub did not exist before market forces caused it to exist.

It is only a hub while it is useful for it to be so.

If there was a better place to do business, the trade would move there.

There is no reason to arbitrarily say that Jita should always be the place to go.

A lot of people these days stay away from it in fact

Don't pretend you misunderstood, Jita itself is irrelevant, the important part is "main trade hub".
Main trade hub = better deals in the whole game due to bleeding edge competition.