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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1541 - 2014-03-29 20:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
First sensible post of the day Big smile

I have tried to explain to you that Ero1 was using CCP's game to facilitate the actions he took. That's enough for CCP to be able to take action. Nobody has rewritten the TOS or the EULA at all.

I accept that sohkar has said what he has (wonder if he was promised some assets back to do so - tinfoil) but that still doesn't detract from the initial act. Now that you have agreed that Ero1's behaviour was beyond the norm do you see what I am trying to say?

Most people would never go to that extent so this situation does not need clearing up. Nothing has changed.
I agree with most of this, but the problem I still have is that other people being found in game and harassed out of game are still given the line "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE.". Why was this exact response, which is a response from a GM, not given to this scenario? Why in this one instance is an "out of game activity"? When not "all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?

If this rule was still being enforced, nothing would have happened, since none of the harassment happened in EVE.


I suppose the only answer that I can give to this is that the initial contact took place within the game.

If I randomly contacted you on Twitter and started abusing you over this conversation, and that continued, then I would expect CCP to remove my character from game. The Twitter side - they can't stop me tweeting you - at that point it is Twitter/law enforcement.

I think you are looking too far into this. CCP's sphere of influence is pretty clear. If you do something that is evidently related to a character of yours within the game, that affects the image of their IP then they can act as they see fit.

That hasn't changed. If Jayem See donated 100m IRL cash to a charity and CCP gave him a free subscription, would you then say "But I donated £5 last year do I get a retrospective refund?" It just doesn't make sense.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1542 - 2014-03-29 20:31:03 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why was this exact response, which is a response from a GM, not given to this scenario? Why in this one instance is an "out of game activity"? When not "all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?


Why dont you ask CCP directly instead of a player who is no position to answer it?
Don't want to. I am exercising my right to free speech. I'm pretty sure we've covered this. I tell you what, continue to suggest the same thing to me over and over, while the rest of us continue the discussion.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1543 - 2014-03-29 20:33:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why was this exact response, which is a response from a GM, not given to this scenario? Why in this one instance is an "out of game activity"? When not "all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?


Why dont you ask CCP directly instead of a player who is no position to answer it?
Don't want to. I am exercising my right to free speech. I'm pretty sure we've covered this. I tell you what, continue to suggest the same thing to me over and over, while the rest of us continue the discussion.


Why don't you address this to C....oh. Big smile

Aaaaaaand relax.
Salvos Rhoska
#1544 - 2014-03-29 20:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Why dont you ask CCP directly instead of a player who is no position to answer it?
Don't want to. I am exercising my right to free speech. I'm pretty sure we've covered this. I tell you what, continue to suggest the same thing to me over and over, while the rest of us continue the discussion.


Yes.

I will.

You are asking things only CCP can answer.

And yet you are deliberately not asking CCP.

Something very wrong with that.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1545 - 2014-03-29 20:42:33 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
I suppose the only answer that I can give to this is that the initial contact took place within the game.

If I randomly contacted you on Twitter and started abusing you over this conversation, and that continued, then I would expect CCP to remove my character from game. The Twitter side - they can't stop me tweeting you - at that point it is Twitter/law enforcement.

I think you are looking too far into this. CCP's sphere of influence is pretty clear. If you do something that is evidently related to a character of yours within the game, that affects the image of their IP then they can act as they see fit.

That hasn't changed. If Jayem See donated 100m IRL cash to a charity and CCP gave him a free subscription, would you then say "But I donated £5 last year do I get a retrospective refund?" It just doesn't make sense.
Their influence isn't clear at all. Previously they have states quite explicitly that if all communications are not in EVE they do nothing. It really is (or was) that simple. If you have a problem out of EVE you should take it up with the law enforcement or the service owners.

And of course, they can react however they wish, that's their right. They can even tell us absolutely nothing about the rules, that again is their right, but that doesn't mean we have to like it or agree.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
olan2005
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1546 - 2014-03-29 20:45:21 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
Indeed - and as such perhaps you have a higher level of cognition than some of the people that find themselves in these situations.

It still doesn't make pushing them to an edge, morally OK. If you were in that situation as the person executing the scam I would hope that you could see the point where it stopped being funny. My line is probably waaaay before yours or Ero1's.
You are perfectly correct. That in no way excuses Erotica 1's behaviour, which is why I am not jumping up and down and demanding Erotica 1 be unbanned. I just want the rules to be consistent, so all victims are treated the same. People should be refused help because the harassment took part outside of the game, then see another player get help for a different out of game harassment all because a CSM member chose that particular case to start up a hate campaign. Either third party communications are covered by the EULA, or they aren't. Not "sometimes they are if enough people scream about it". That leaves a lot of people feeling like they are too unimportant for the rules to be enforced for them.

To make things worse, in this particular case, Sohkar even stated himself that Erotica 1 should not be banned, so the actual victim in this case was not asking to be helped. So victims who are asking for help are told "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE.", while a victim who is accepting what happened as a matter of a bad choice is having the rules bent in his favour due to public outcry,


First sensible post of the day Big smile

I have tried to explain to you that Ero1 was using CCP's game to facilitate the actions he took. That's enough for CCP to be able to take action. Nobody has rewritten the TOS or the EULA at all.

I accept that sohkar has said what he has (wonder if he was promised some assets back to do so - tinfoil) but that still doesn't detract from the initial act. Now that you have agreed that Ero1's behaviour was beyond the norm do you see what I am trying to say?

Most people would never go to that extent so this situation does not need clearing up. Nothing has changed.



I think you just answered his question partailly . LOOK at the Bold part of the text. It is the use of CCP game to facilitate his actions that warrants the intervention + the making of these actions public damaging CCP reputation . At the end of the day its there game, there rules
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1547 - 2014-03-29 20:45:38 UTC
Liese Shardani wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's pretty easy to state that under no circumstance would I turn to racial abuse since I'm not in any way a racist. When you are pushed you tend to strike out more instinctively and say things before your mind has filtered them. Racist remarks are not filtered out during my every day speech, they are simply not generated to begin with, so while I may use a vast array of selected profanities when pushed beyond a limit, there is no situation ever in which I would hurl racist abuse voluntarily, regardless of my level of stress.

I certainly wouldn't use them in the way they were used on the recording. Have you actually listened to it? They are not just the odd word thrown out in a moment of anger, they are calculated racist attacks.
Yes, I've listened to several of the audios.

Sohkar's invective was racist, yes, but the real motivator sounded to me like utter desperation. He was completely out of rope, and that's all he had. He had lost lost lost and LOST to those guys for TWO HOURS, and nothing he tried had worked.

I doubt I'd ever say anything racist, since that's not how I roll, but I do entertain the possibility that a situation so eff-ed up could come along that I'd be desperate and freaked out enough to say some stuff I'd NEVER imagine coming out of my mouth.


Well said, Liese

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1548 - 2014-03-29 20:48:28 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
I suppose the only answer that I can give to this is that the initial contact took place within the game.

If I randomly contacted you on Twitter and started abusing you over this conversation, and that continued, then I would expect CCP to remove my character from game. The Twitter side - they can't stop me tweeting you - at that point it is Twitter/law enforcement.

I think you are looking too far into this. CCP's sphere of influence is pretty clear. If you do something that is evidently related to a character of yours within the game, that affects the image of their IP then they can act as they see fit.

That hasn't changed. If Jayem See donated 100m IRL cash to a charity and CCP gave him a free subscription, would you then say "But I donated £5 last year do I get a retrospective refund?" It just doesn't make sense.
Their influence isn't clear at all. Previously they have states quite explicitly that if all communications are not in EVE they do nothing. It really is (or was) that simple. If you have a problem out of EVE you should take it up with the law enforcement or the service owners.

And of course, they can react however they wish, that's their right. They can even tell us absolutely nothing about the rules, that again is their right, but that doesn't mean we have to like it or agree.


Fair enough. This really does come down to semantics (and I don't mean that negatively in this instance.)

For me that is the question that you should be asking CCP - I know you stated you want to ask it here and go for it. It seems to me that you and I have distilled our discussion down to it's core.

I know I won't be able to persuade you of my opinion and I can't see yours. Seeing as you don't want to ask them, I will do it myself. Not out of any high-minded altruism, but because it's possible it is worth asking.

I'd offer you a wager on the outcome but I probably won't be able to discuss it Big smile

Aaaaaaand relax.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1549 - 2014-03-29 20:48:37 UTC
I'll try again:

We all know shadoo's outburst.
He humiliated a player and called him among other things a ******.
IF at that time a CSM would have had an axe to grind and blogged about it you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have no problems finding a couple dozen forum trolls to start a threadnaught.
What I know now from what is happened is that CCP would have banned him. Rightly so, the video even has ingame footage, no doubt it happened in EVE online, not on some teamspeak server where they have no control over.

Or do you think they wouldn't have?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1550 - 2014-03-29 20:49:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Why dont you ask CCP directly instead of a player who is no position to answer it?
Don't want to. I am exercising my right to free speech. I'm pretty sure we've covered this. I tell you what, continue to suggest the same thing to me over and over, while the rest of us continue the discussion.


Yes.

I will.

You are asking things only CCP can answer.

And yet you are deliberately not asking CCP.

Something very wrong with that.


Whatever you do, don't blow up.
Wouldn't want Lucas banned for trapping you here and forcing you to read his posts.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1551 - 2014-03-29 20:53:33 UTC
Danalee wrote:
I'll try again:

We all know shadoo's outburst.
He humiliated a player and called him among other things a ******.
IF at that time a CSM would have had an axe to grind and blogged about it you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have no problems finding a couple dozen forum trolls to start a threadnaught.
What I know now from what is happened is that CCP would have banned him. Rightly so, the video even has ingame footage, no doubt it happened in EVE online, not on some teamspeak server where they have no control over.

Or do you think they wouldn't have?

D.

Bear


Straws. You are grasping at.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1552 - 2014-03-29 20:58:25 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Danalee wrote:
I'll try again:

We all know shadoo's outburst.
He humiliated a player and called him among other things a ******.
IF at that time a CSM would have had an axe to grind and blogged about it you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have no problems finding a couple dozen forum trolls to start a threadnaught.
What I know now from what is happened is that CCP would have banned him. Rightly so, the video even has ingame footage, no doubt it happened in EVE online, not on some teamspeak server where they have no control over.

Or do you think they wouldn't have?

D.

Bear


Straws. You are grasping at.


Actually I think it's an excellent example.

How long before CCP closes the Crime and Punishment forum? Are people not being humiliated there?

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1553 - 2014-03-29 21:00:17 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
How long before CCP closes the Crime and Punishment forum? Are people not being humiliated there?


Not to the point of harassment.
Salvos Rhoska
#1554 - 2014-03-29 21:00:26 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Whatever you do, don't blow up.


I am safely docked and insured for good measure!

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1555 - 2014-03-29 21:02:13 UTC
Liese Shardani wrote:

Sohkar's invective was racist, yes, but the real motivator sounded to me like utter desperation. He was completely out of rope, and that's all he had. He had lost lost lost and LOST to those guys for TWO HOURS, and nothing he tried had worked.

I doubt I'd ever say anything racist, since that's not how I roll, but I do entertain the possibility that a situation so eff-ed up could come along that I'd be desperate and freaked out enough to say some stuff I'd NEVER imagine coming out of my mouth.


I like how so many people are making excuses for the "Victim" but the scammer must pay. I don't think any amount of rage should excuse racist behavior in game or in RL. If I get upset with someone and say "Look you ____ shut up" it's still wrong. Often peoples true selves come out when they are upset or angry.

Also seek counseling if the loss of digital items causes you to lose emotional control where you can't control your anger against RL people. It's a game... EVE IS NOT REAL... When CCP decides to pull the plug all your crap is going bye bye... When this happens are these people going to snap and harm themselves or other people?

Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1556 - 2014-03-29 21:02:29 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
How long before CCP closes the Crime and Punishment forum? Are people not being humiliated there?


Not to the point of harassment.


How can you tell?

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Salvos Rhoska
#1557 - 2014-03-29 21:03:55 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
How can you tell?

Cos they haven't been banned.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1558 - 2014-03-29 21:05:24 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
How can you tell?

Cos they haven't been banned.


Seriously made me laugh out loud! :)

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1559 - 2014-03-29 21:06:32 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
How can you tell?

Cos they haven't been banned.

Prove it maybe?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1560 - 2014-03-29 21:08:58 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
How can you tell?

Cos they haven't been banned.

Prove it maybe?

D.

Bear


I've been harrassing you on the forums all night and I am still here Big smile

Aaaaaaand relax.