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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Vance Armistice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1521 - 2014-03-29 19:52:27 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
D

I did read what it was replied to.

It still comes down to the fact that there is nothing left to say here. The decision has been made. I've answered Lucas' questions (and he quoted me repeatedly)

You seem to want to repeat that sohkar was abusive. He was. After two hours of being abused to save someone's in game reputation. Whilst I would not condone what he said, and hope I would not reach that point, what is your point?

Have you never said something in anger and then regretted it? I know I have. Your failure to grasp the wider situation is for you to sort out. Nothing I can say will change that.


Not only do I want to repeat Sokhar was abusive but also that said abuse started early on in the conversation not after 2 hours of stalling and ranting on his part and that of the others present.
Also he wasn't abused and there was no intent to harm him. To add insult to injury, intent can't be made clear by listening to that recording and usually those things don't have the effect it had with Sokhar. If the intent was to get the contestant to rage than they failed 99.9% of the time.
You think I fail to grasp the wider situation while ignoring the blogpost of Ripard that got this whole mess started in the first place. That's the wider situation, sorry you fail to realise that.

Anyhow, so you don't condone calling fellow players stupid because they have a different opinion than you. And Lucas prefers CCP to answer the questions directed to them instead of another player. I feel you should at least respect that.

Wait... CSM Mike Azariah thinks it's cool to call people stupid. I'll concede and go cry in a corner after being forum neutered by a CSM.


Or not.

D.

Bear


stupid...concede...Nuetered...cry... you are trying to entice me aren't you.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1522 - 2014-03-29 19:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
Quote:
Not only do I want to repeat Sokhar was abusive but also that said abuse started early on in the conversation not after 2 hours of stalling and ranting on his part and that of the others present.
Also he wasn't abused and there was no intent to harm him. To add insult to injury, intent can't be made clear by listening to that recording and usually those things don't have the effect it had with Sokhar. If the intent was to get the contestant to rage than they failed 99.9% of the time.
You think I fail to grasp the wider situation while ignoring the blogpost of Ripard that got this whole mess started in the first place. That's the wider situation, sorry you fail to realise that.

Anyhow, so you don't condone calling fellow players stupid because they have a different opinion than you. And Lucas prefers CCP to answer the questions directed to them instead of another player. I feel you should at least respect that.

Wait... CSM Mike Azariah thinks it's cool to call people stupid. I'll concede and go cry in a corner after being forum neutered by a CSM.


Or not.


If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there. If someone found it offensive, and said so, then they are exercising the same right that you are defending from Lucas.

I will defend Lucas' right to post his questions (whilst not acknowledging the fact that I have answered them) as much as your right to be annoyed with the CSM.

As for calling people stupid - I am not responsible for other people's comments Big smile

Aaaaaaand relax.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1523 - 2014-03-29 20:00:39 UTC
Jayem See wrote:

If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there.


The wider picture is that Erotica 1 has been doing this for a long time and has been putting this out there for a long time.
On top of that the specific case of Shokar was even linked on these forums and allmost everyone was laughing about it or shoked by the death threats, racism and gay bashing in the recording.

UNTILL a member of the CSM posted a blog post, a month later saying Ero was a terrible person, torturing players et all.
He posted this because CCP didn't want to ban Ero when he asked them to.
THAT is the wider picture.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Liese Shardani
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1524 - 2014-03-29 20:04:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure I've said things out of anger. I, however, have never and would never repeatedly hurl racist remarks at another individual, no matter what the circumstances. And I most certainly would not hurl abuse after choosing to perform random tasks asked of me over a computer game when I could easily walk away at any time.
Think about it from another angle. Let's say you are absolutely right that you can't imagine a situation where you'd do something like that.

What if, though, there's a situation that *could* produce such a response in you, and does? And it's posted on the Internet for people to see?

Sitting here in my nice geek-cave of an office, *I* have a hard time imagining a situation so bad that I'd explode like that, but I'm smart enough to realize that I can't conceive of every effed-up scenario in the world.

And the Bonus Round was effed-up.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1525 - 2014-03-29 20:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
Danalee wrote:
Jayem See wrote:

If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there.


The wider picture is that Erotica 1 has been doing this for a long time and has been putting this out there for a long time.
On top of that the specific case of Shokar was even linked on these forums and allmost everyone was laughing about it or shoked by the death threats, racism and gay bashing in the recording.

UNTILL a member of the CSM posted a blog post, a month later saying Ero was a terrible person, torturing players et all.
He posted this because CCP didn't want to ban Ero when he asked them to.
THAT is the wider picture.

D.

Bear


I get you. So a small minority of the playerbase has been laughing about this for a long time. Unfortunately somebody with some influence dared to expose it to the wider community.

A lot of that wider community didn't know it was going on and was shocked. The response we all know about.

Does that make it right or justify it? No. Have CCP acted in accordance with their own moral compass as an organisation? Yes.

I knew about minerbumping.com 3 months ago but I didn't read it because it is of no interest to me. Does my ignorance make me complicit? I don't think so.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#1526 - 2014-03-29 20:07:15 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Jayem See wrote:

If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there.


The wider picture is that Erotica 1 has been doing this for a long time and has been putting this out there for a long time.
On top of that the specific case of Shokar was even linked on these forums and allmost everyone was laughing about it or shoked by the death threats, racism and gay bashing in the recording.

UNTILL a member of the CSM posted a blog post, a month later saying Ero was a terrible person, torturing players et all.
He posted this because CCP didn't want to ban Ero when he asked them to.
THAT is the wider picture.

D.

Bear

Slavery was perfectly normal for several centuries until people of conscience spoke out.
Vance Armistice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1527 - 2014-03-29 20:07:52 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Jayem See wrote:

If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there.


The wider picture is that Erotica 1 has been doing this for a long time and has been putting this out there for a long time.
On top of that the specific case of Shokar was even linked on these forums and allmost everyone was laughing about it or shoked by the death threats, racism and gay bashing in the recording.

UNTILL a member of the CSM posted a blog post, a month later saying Ero was a terrible person, torturing players et all.
He posted this because CCP didn't want to ban Ero when he asked them to.
THAT is the wider picture.

D.

Bear

Slavery was perfectly normal for several centuries until people of conscience spoke out.


/thread
Salvos Rhoska
#1528 - 2014-03-29 20:07:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
This guy Lucas.

Asking everyone EXCEPT CCP, about what CCP's policy is.

I thought this was supposed to be an intelligent community.
Well, it is. But this kind of thing drops the average HARD.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1529 - 2014-03-29 20:09:22 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Indeed - and as such perhaps you have a higher level of cognition than some of the people that find themselves in these situations.

It still doesn't make pushing them to an edge, morally OK. If you were in that situation as the person executing the scam I would hope that you could see the point where it stopped being funny. My line is probably waaaay before yours or Ero1's.
You are perfectly correct. That in no way excuses Erotica 1's behaviour, which is why I am not jumping up and down and demanding Erotica 1 be unbanned. I just want the rules to be consistent, so all victims are treated the same. People should be refused help because the harassment took part outside of the game, then see another player get help for a different out of game harassment all because a CSM member chose that particular case to start up a hate campaign. Either third party communications are covered by the EULA, or they aren't. Not "sometimes they are if enough people scream about it". That leaves a lot of people feeling like they are too unimportant for the rules to be enforced for them.

To make things worse, in this particular case, Sohkar even stated himself that Erotica 1 should not be banned, so the actual victim in this case was not asking to be helped. So victims who are asking for help are told "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE.", while a victim who is accepting what happened as a matter of a bad choice is having the rules bent in his favour due to public outcry,

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Vance Armistice
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1530 - 2014-03-29 20:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vance Armistice
Liese Shardani wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure I've said things out of anger. I, however, have never and would never repeatedly hurl racist remarks at another individual, no matter what the circumstances. And I most certainly would not hurl abuse after choosing to perform random tasks asked of me over a computer game when I could easily walk away at any time.
Think about it from another angle. Let's say you are absolutely right that you can't imagine a situation where you'd do something like that.

What if, though, there's a situation that *could* produce such a response in you, and does? And it's posted on the Internet for people to see?

Sitting here in my nice geek-cave of an office, *I* have a hard time imagining a situation so bad that I'd explode like that, but I'm smart enough to realize that I can't conceive of every effed-up scenario in the world.

And the Bonus Round was effed-up.


Agreed.

Teens can play this game. Their parents have no idea what the culture is like. Should a 13-14 yr old be subjected to a bound round?
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1531 - 2014-03-29 20:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
Indeed - and as such perhaps you have a higher level of cognition than some of the people that find themselves in these situations.

It still doesn't make pushing them to an edge, morally OK. If you were in that situation as the person executing the scam I would hope that you could see the point where it stopped being funny. My line is probably waaaay before yours or Ero1's.
You are perfectly correct. That in no way excuses Erotica 1's behaviour, which is why I am not jumping up and down and demanding Erotica 1 be unbanned. I just want the rules to be consistent, so all victims are treated the same. People should be refused help because the harassment took part outside of the game, then see another player get help for a different out of game harassment all because a CSM member chose that particular case to start up a hate campaign. Either third party communications are covered by the EULA, or they aren't. Not "sometimes they are if enough people scream about it". That leaves a lot of people feeling like they are too unimportant for the rules to be enforced for them.

To make things worse, in this particular case, Sohkar even stated himself that Erotica 1 should not be banned, so the actual victim in this case was not asking to be helped. So victims who are asking for help are told "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE.", while a victim who is accepting what happened as a matter of a bad choice is having the rules bent in his favour due to public outcry,


First sensible post of the day Big smile

I have tried to explain to you that Ero1 was using CCP's game to facilitate the actions he took. That's enough for CCP to be able to take action. Nobody has rewritten the TOS or the EULA at all.

I accept that sohkar has said what he has (wonder if he was promised some assets back to do so - tinfoil) but that still doesn't detract from the initial act. Now that you have agreed that Ero1's behaviour was beyond the norm do you see what I am trying to say?

Most people would never go to that extent so this situation does not need clearing up. Nothing has changed.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Liese Shardani
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1532 - 2014-03-29 20:16:39 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
So a small minority of the playerbase has been laughing about this for a long time. Unfortunately somebody with some influence dared to expose it to the wider community.

A lot of that wider community didn't know it was going on and was shocked. The response we all know about.

Does that make it right or justify it? No. Have CCP acted in accordance with their own moral compass as an organisation? Yes.

I knew about minerbumping.com 3 months ago but I didn't read it because it is of no interest to me. Does my ignorance make me complicit? I don't think so.
Yeah, I knew about minerbumping over a year ago and was too bored/busy to keep up with it. For as long as I've been subbed to EVE, I've almost never read the forums and didn't post here until last week. I've got several private message boards' worth of EVE posts to keep up with.

My SO is a blogger, though, and keeps up with that world, and he posted a link on one of our boards last week to Ripard's Bonus Round post. I spent a while checking into the claims he made and decided for myself what I thought about it.

So yeah, it's fair to say Ripard's post had an effect. But many (most?) who've objected to the Bonus Round aren't doing it on Ripard's say-so. There's a lot of stuff going on in the EVE Universe and not enough time to keep up with it all. Ripard merely directed the EVE community's attention to some trash that needed taking out.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1533 - 2014-03-29 20:18:35 UTC
Liese Shardani wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure I've said things out of anger. I, however, have never and would never repeatedly hurl racist remarks at another individual, no matter what the circumstances. And I most certainly would not hurl abuse after choosing to perform random tasks asked of me over a computer game when I could easily walk away at any time.
Think about it from another angle. Let's say you are absolutely right that you can't imagine a situation where you'd do something like that.

What if, though, there's a situation that *could* produce such a response in you, and does? And it's posted on the Internet for people to see?

Sitting here in my nice geek-cave of an office, *I* have a hard time imagining a situation so bad that I'd explode like that, but I'm smart enough to realize that I can't conceive of every effed-up scenario in the world.

And the Bonus Round was effed-up.
It's pretty easy to state that under no circumstance would I turn to racial abuse since I'm not in any way a racist. When you are pushed you tend to strike out more instinctively and say things before your mind has filtered them. Racist remarks are not filtered out during my every day speech, they are simply not generated to begin with, so while I may use a vast array of selected profanities when pushed beyond a limit, there is no situation ever in which I would hurl racist abuse voluntarily, regardless of my level of stress.

I certainly wouldn't use them in the way they were used on the recording. Have you actually listened to it? They are not just the odd word thrown out in a moment of anger, they are calculated racist attacks.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1534 - 2014-03-29 20:20:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Liese Shardani wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure I've said things out of anger. I, however, have never and would never repeatedly hurl racist remarks at another individual, no matter what the circumstances. And I most certainly would not hurl abuse after choosing to perform random tasks asked of me over a computer game when I could easily walk away at any time.
Think about it from another angle. Let's say you are absolutely right that you can't imagine a situation where you'd do something like that.

What if, though, there's a situation that *could* produce such a response in you, and does? And it's posted on the Internet for people to see?

Sitting here in my nice geek-cave of an office, *I* have a hard time imagining a situation so bad that I'd explode like that, but I'm smart enough to realize that I can't conceive of every effed-up scenario in the world.

And the Bonus Round was effed-up.
It's pretty easy to state that under no circumstance would I turn to racial abuse since I'm not in any way a racist. When you are pushed you tend to strike out more instinctively and say things before your mind has filtered them. Racist remarks are not filtered out during my every day speech, they are simply not generated to begin with, so while I may use a vast array of selected profanities when pushed beyond a limit, there is no situation ever in which I would hurl racist abuse voluntarily, regardless of my level of stress.

I certainly wouldn't use them in the way they were used on the recording. Have you actually listened to it? They are not just the odd word thrown out in a moment of anger, they are calculated racist attacks.


Not entirely sure that sohkar was in a position to be "calculated" about anything at that point.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Salvos Rhoska
#1535 - 2014-03-29 20:21:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I may use a vast array of selected profanities when pushed beyond a limit, there is no situation ever in which I would hurl racist abuse voluntarily, regardless of my level of stress.


Prove it.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1536 - 2014-03-29 20:22:31 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Jayem See wrote:

If you really want to go back to how this started then Jester is not the place to be looking. Erotica1 is the one that put this out there. Start there.


The wider picture is that Erotica 1 has been doing this for a long time and has been putting this out there for a long time.
On top of that the specific case of Shokar was even linked on these forums and allmost everyone was laughing about it or shoked by the death threats, racism and gay bashing in the recording.

UNTILL a member of the CSM posted a blog post, a month later saying Ero was a terrible person, torturing players et all.
He posted this because CCP didn't want to ban Ero when he asked them to.
THAT is the wider picture.

D.

Bear


I get you. So a small minority of the playerbase has been laughing about this for a long time. Unfortunately somebody with some influence dared to expose it to the wider community.

A lot of that wider community didn't know it was going on and was shocked. The response we all know about.

Does that make it right or justify it? No. Have CCP acted in accordance with their own moral compass as an organisation? Yes.

I knew about minerbumping.com 3 months ago but I didn't read it because it is of no interest to me. Does my ignorance make me complicit? I don't think so.


I wasn't talking about minerbumping, but the EVE ONLINE OFFICIAL forums. It doesn't matter.
CCP has had many opportunities to put a stop to it. They didn't.

Many people didn't know about it and were shocked, agreed.
But the first time it came to light, they were shocked about the racist, anti gay remarks and the death threats.
The second time, when someone blew it all out of proportion the reaction was indeed different.
No denying that.

It still is of no concern to me. I really don't care. I didn't see it as harassement but many people do. I respect that.

CCP Banned Erotica 1 for reasons unknown and without communication. That is my problem.
To a non-biased onlooker that is caving to mob/ripard pressure, no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it.
The different CSM reps trolling and humiliating other players in this thread is just the big red ribbon arround this bullshit present.

CCP came on record in this thread, before Ero was banned, saying that in cases of harassement people should contact their local law enforcement. That's clear. I understand that. I love it even. It's how it should be.
Than they banned Ero. And it doesn't make sense.

I like stuff making sense.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1537 - 2014-03-29 20:22:35 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
First sensible post of the day Big smile

I have tried to explain to you that Ero1 was using CCP's game to facilitate the actions he took. That's enough for CCP to be able to take action. Nobody has rewritten the TOS or the EULA at all.

I accept that sohkar has said what he has (wonder if he was promised some assets back to do so - tinfoil) but that still doesn't detract from the initial act. Now that you have agreed that Ero1's behaviour was beyond the norm do you see what I am trying to say?

Most people would never go to that extent so this situation does not need clearing up. Nothing has changed.
I agree with most of this, but the problem I still have is that other people being found in game and harassed out of game are still given the line "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE.". Why was this exact response, which is a response from a GM, not given to this scenario? Why in this one instance is an "out of game activity"? When not "all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?

If this rule was still being enforced, nothing would have happened, since none of the harassment happened in EVE.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Liese Shardani
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1538 - 2014-03-29 20:22:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's pretty easy to state that under no circumstance would I turn to racial abuse since I'm not in any way a racist. When you are pushed you tend to strike out more instinctively and say things before your mind has filtered them. Racist remarks are not filtered out during my every day speech, they are simply not generated to begin with, so while I may use a vast array of selected profanities when pushed beyond a limit, there is no situation ever in which I would hurl racist abuse voluntarily, regardless of my level of stress.

I certainly wouldn't use them in the way they were used on the recording. Have you actually listened to it? They are not just the odd word thrown out in a moment of anger, they are calculated racist attacks.
Yes, I've listened to several of the audios.

Sohkar's invective was racist, yes, but the real motivator sounded to me like utter desperation. He was completely out of rope, and that's all he had. He had lost lost lost and LOST to those guys for TWO HOURS, and nothing he tried had worked.

I doubt I'd ever say anything racist, since that's not how I roll, but I do entertain the possibility that a situation so eff-ed up could come along that I'd be desperate and freaked out enough to say some stuff I'd NEVER imagine coming out of my mouth.
Salvos Rhoska
#1539 - 2014-03-29 20:24:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why was this exact response, which is a response from a GM, not given to this scenario? Why in this one instance is an "out of game activity"? When not "all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?


Why dont you ask CCP directly instead of a player who is no position to answer it?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1540 - 2014-03-29 20:28:42 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Not entirely sure that sohkar was in a position to be "calculated" about anything at that point.
If you listen to the remarks, they are beyond just words of insult. He specifically relates their positions to race and historic events within that race. It's difficult to get the exact meaning across here, but needless to say if you listen to the tail end of the recording, it's clearly not just the odd word slipping out.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.