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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1461 - 2014-03-29 18:35:13 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let me quote you again for clarity:
Darkopus wrote:
so please explain to me what asking someone to smear mayon on their body has to do with internet spaceships, also what has telling your victim to give his wife a paperbag to breathe into to calm her down got to do with internet spaceships
So yes, what does that have to do with internet spaceships? It doesn't have anything at all to do with internet spaceships, so CCP has absolutely no reason to step into it, since it has nothing to do with them. In the exact same way that personal attacks on twitter have nothing to do with them.
Except you omit that the person behind Erotica 1's avatar is using the game as a tool to reel his victims out of game. And that makes it CCP's business, whether you like it or not.
OK, so why are people who take an in game disagreement to an out of game forums and harass the other player not banned? I'm really not omitting anything here mate, the point is it's inconsistent. They can't claim to not deal with third party comms, telling some victims to effectively go **** themselves, then stand by others saying "yeah, that guys was mean". Either third party comms are covered by the EULA or they aren't. Which is it?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1462 - 2014-03-29 18:35:58 UTC
Drone 16 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drone 16 wrote:
Hey Bro, you can cry me a river all day if you like. I enjoy watching snivelers snivel.

Point is, you are not accomplishing anything with you juvenile neediness. No one here can tell you where you can find a rule to hide behind. We are not GM's.

As far as reporting you,not my style. I can handle anything people say to me on the forums and I don't need a rule to keep me safe.

Don't get me wrong I support your right to embarrass yourself.

Just don't get mad if I call you out from time to time for it.

So do continue. Here, in an effort to bring peace between the two of us let me start your next post.

What if...
Incorrect.
Witty
I thought so too.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#1463 - 2014-03-29 18:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
For what it's worth (probably not much) I think CCP made the best call they could here. Initially I was worried about arbitrary bannings; being a ganker... I don't make a lot of friends. I think the policy they've laid out is actually really reasonable, and is good for the game overall. It seems like they've really thought about it, and have things well in hand for the community and the overall health of the game. It wasn't as clear to me in the dev statements in this thread, imho... What really convinced me was this.

...just my 2 isk.


Mikhem wrote:
*snip* It seems that victim could have dyslexia and it was abused alot. Dyslexia means difficulty to read. I found relevant internet links for reading about this incident. This audio file was kind of sad to listen through.*snip*

He doesn't have dyslexia. He just hasn't read anything aloud in a long time and probably doesn't read much anyway.

Edit: I hope it wasn't a perma-ban for Erotica 1, though.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Salvos Rhoska
#1464 - 2014-03-29 18:37:55 UTC
This guy thinks if he can get some random posters tongue-tied with circular logic, that wins him the entire issue and CCP was automatically therefore wrong.

Nope.jpg.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1465 - 2014-03-29 18:41:56 UTC
Mikhem wrote:
Hot topic of this week seems to be Erotica 1 ban and I decided to listen this audio file through about it. It seems that victim could have dyslexia and it was abused alot. Dyslexia means difficulty to read. I found relevant internet links for reading about this incident. This audio file was kind of sad to listen through.

...truncated...

Victim has made two forum posts and here is link to his profile containing links to these posts.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/sohkar
And to quote the "victim" in this case:
Sohkar wrote:
I dont think erotica 1 should be banned but just because of that i dont think what he did was 100% right but i choose to do what i did and i said what i said he didnt tell me to say it.
So if even the "victim" has stated Erotica 1 should not be banned, how can people still not see that this is CCP responding to a CSM members personal vendetta and the outcry of the public, not the needs of the "victim"?

Let's drop the act. We all know why I keep pushing for answers and why we will never get any. This has got nothing to do with rules against harassment, it's PR, plain and simple. A CSM member started a witch hunt, the community got stirred up into a rage shitstorm and CCP buckled to public pressure to save face.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#1466 - 2014-03-29 18:42:52 UTC
A-bluuu bluu bluuuu?

:,,,,,,,(
Darkopus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1467 - 2014-03-29 18:43:26 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
No its not alright . It still being a punch of Narcissistic prick. However without evidence provided by the perpetrator it will be a hell of a lot harder for them to intervene
So then their rules should state that. They shouldn't pretend nothing has changed, then ban someone for doing something that was fine last month. They also shouldn't ignore the other highly rule breaking behaviour on that very same recording, and they shouldn't be stating that they do not deal with third party communications, then base a ban off of them.

As Remiel has stated, it's not about the decision they have taken, nobody blames them for thinking Erotica 1 has broken some rules, but they need to consistently enforce them. All they;ve done here is shown that a CSM with a vendetta and a screaming public gets them to take action, while the act of actually harassing someone does not.
You still conveniently ignore the fact that the player using those out of game comms, was using CCP's game in order to find, scam and victimise their target.

In that case CCP have every right to remove the protagonist.
So why then do players who have in game actions then take them out of game to forum or a blog or twitter to attack and harass those same players not get a ban hammer? Why is there clearly stated responses from GM stating that "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?
Source


so why then do players who have in game actions feel the need to take it to coms and ask for mayo smeared victory pictures. We can go round in a massive circle all day on this and I guess the only people that know are CCP. We can ask them for details and clarifications in fact we did and the response was the post by Falcon with a few follow ups from Guard. CCP are not at liberty nor do they have to give us any more information than they want to. They clearly identified that they examine these things on a case by case basis and also clearly sated that for any situation where you feel threatened IRL to report it to your local law enforcement agency.

The bonus round stuff was an extraordinary case which I agree would be helpfull if we got more details on their lines of thinking, but we know we won't get that. The bottom line here is that this is not a democracy, we play and access this game at CCP's pleasure and when we reach a stage where we don't like what they are peddling there is always the biomass option. However to think that we are in some kind of democracy where we can demand answers from CCP is delusional.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#1468 - 2014-03-29 18:46:02 UTC
Look, Lucas, you know my character hates your character with a passion, ingame but what you are doing here on the forums deserves not only mad props but also very much respect.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Just FYI, Erotica 1's evidence also showed the "victim" hurling real life death threats and racial abuse, as well as several other people on the bonus room side. Seems strange they were so selective in the interpretation of the evidence. It almost seems like they weren't even responding to the evidence at all, but to the public outcry and the CSM with a personal vendetta.



TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Also the magnitude of this turn of events has just become shockingly clear as Lucas and I are in agreement
---
Ripard Teg did not merely "expose" a wrong. If he had responsibly reported the issue, and wanted to open a discussion, that would be great. But he opened his piece with literally stating that another player was pure evil, and followed up with literally calling him a torturer, and ended by pleading for the immediate removal of the individual.

That is not responsible journalism, that is not exposing a wrong, that is highly biased, sensationalist dreck. It's clear from the get go that his agenda is to get Erotica1 banned, and that he is willing to use any tactics possible - even horrific ones such as trivialising torture - to accompish it.

This one was nice too;

Jebediah Phoenix wrote:
So we can get perma-banned now for asking people to do a little song and dance? When the "victim" wasn't punished for racism and death threats? When apparently encouraging someone to commit suicide is worth only a 3 month ban?
Yeah, nice priorities CCP. Successful witch hunt guys.



To the ripard's posse: keep saying we are the psychopats, it's very good for the case you are making.

D.

Bear


INB4 OMG TEARS!

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Cordelia Mulholland IV
Hum Bole Enterprises
#1469 - 2014-03-29 18:47:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
,,, the point is it's inconsistent.


Tell me about it! Erotica 1 had white hair and was banned. Yet I see hundreds of other white haired avatars still playing EvE without a care in the World.

CCP need to standardize their 'king rulez man.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1470 - 2014-03-29 18:48:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let me quote you again for clarity:
Darkopus wrote:
so please explain to me what asking someone to smear mayon on their body has to do with internet spaceships, also what has telling your victim to give his wife a paperbag to breathe into to calm her down got to do with internet spaceships
So yes, what does that have to do with internet spaceships? It doesn't have anything at all to do with internet spaceships, so CCP has absolutely no reason to step into it, since it has nothing to do with them. In the exact same way that personal attacks on twitter have nothing to do with them.
Except you omit that the person behind Erotica 1's avatar is using the game as a tool to reel his victims out of game. And that makes it CCP's business, whether you like it or not.
OK, so why are people who take an in game disagreement to an out of game forums and harass the other player not banned? I'm really not omitting anything here mate, the point is it's inconsistent. They can't claim to not deal with third party comms, telling some victims to effectively go **** themselves, then stand by others saying "yeah, that guys was mean". Either third party comms are covered by the EULA or they aren't. Which is it?


Try this on for size Mr. Literal.

Al Capone a lying, murderering piece of human scum was put away for the rest of is life for....income tax evasion.

Maybe CCP looked at ALL of the facts and information they were given officially and unofficially. Maybe they determined that this individual was no longer welcome in their game because of what they then knew. Maybe based on the totality of the information they decided to ban him on rules violation to make it official.

A lot of "maybe" in there I know.

I will give some definitely. We will definitely never know all of the particulars of what went into their decision because people like you would definitely try to pick their decision apart. There will definitely never be a clearly defined boundary because they definitely can't predict what each and every gamer will do in the future. They definitely don't owe any of us an explanation for the "whats" and "whys" of what they do to keep their business in good shape.



It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1471 - 2014-03-29 18:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Lucas Kell wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let me quote you again for clarity:
Darkopus wrote:
so please explain to me what asking someone to smear mayon on their body has to do with internet spaceships, also what has telling your victim to give his wife a paperbag to breathe into to calm her down got to do with internet spaceships
So yes, what does that have to do with internet spaceships? It doesn't have anything at all to do with internet spaceships, so CCP has absolutely no reason to step into it, since it has nothing to do with them. In the exact same way that personal attacks on twitter have nothing to do with them.
Except you omit that the person behind Erotica 1's avatar is using the game as a tool to reel his victims out of game. And that makes it CCP's business, whether you like it or not.
OK, so why are people who take an in game disagreement to an out of game forums and harass the other player not banned? I'm really not omitting anything here mate, the point is it's inconsistent. They can't claim to not deal with third party comms, telling some victims to effectively go **** themselves, then stand by others saying "yeah, that guys was mean". Either third party comms are covered by the EULA or they aren't. Which is it?


There is a difference between using the game as a tool to inflict real life malice, grief and humiliation versus someone ranting on twitter or quibbling with another player. And most people can differentiate between these. Most of it falls within common sense. In this case, malice is clear. These individuals went as far as to ridicule the victim's wife. They stepped well beyond the line between in-game and real life.

This is why there aren't "clear" rules to sort these issues out. They need to be reviewed on a case by case basis by CCP. So where do you draw the line? Use common sense and you'll steer clear from situations like this. But I realize there are those that, not only lack common sense, but have a need to push the lever as far as they can. In that case you can't get mad when CCP has to step in and bring you back across the line again. In other words, don't get mad because you can't see where you're well past the line.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1472 - 2014-03-29 18:50:37 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Look, Lucas, you know my character hates your character with a passion, ingame but what you are doing here on the forums deserves not only mad props but also very much respect.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Just FYI, Erotica 1's evidence also showed the "victim" hurling real life death threats and racial abuse, as well as several other people on the bonus room side. Seems strange they were so selective in the interpretation of the evidence. It almost seems like they weren't even responding to the evidence at all, but to the public outcry and the CSM with a personal vendetta.



TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Also the magnitude of this turn of events has just become shockingly clear as Lucas and I are in agreement
---
Ripard Teg did not merely "expose" a wrong. If he had responsibly reported the issue, and wanted to open a discussion, that would be great. But he opened his piece with literally stating that another player was pure evil, and followed up with literally calling him a torturer, and ended by pleading for the immediate removal of the individual.

That is not responsible journalism, that is not exposing a wrong, that is highly biased, sensationalist dreck. It's clear from the get go that his agenda is to get Erotica1 banned, and that he is willing to use any tactics possible - even horrific ones such as trivialising torture - to accompish it.

This one was nice too;

Jebediah Phoenix wrote:
So we can get perma-banned now for asking people to do a little song and dance? When the "victim" wasn't punished for racism and death threats? When apparently encouraging someone to commit suicide is worth only a 3 month ban?
Yeah, nice priorities CCP. Successful witch hunt guys.



To the ripard's posse: whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. CryCryCryCryCryCryCry

D.


Bear


INB4 OMG TEARS!


Too late

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits

Vara Vampira
Fwehman Brothers Holdings
#1473 - 2014-03-29 18:54:25 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mikhem wrote:
Hot topic of this week seems to be Erotica 1 ban and I decided to listen this audio file through about it. It seems that victim could have dyslexia and it was abused alot. Dyslexia means difficulty to read. I found relevant internet links for reading about this incident. This audio file was kind of sad to listen through.

...truncated...

Victim has made two forum posts and here is link to his profile containing links to these posts.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/sohkar
And to quote the "victim" in this case:
Sohkar wrote:
I dont think erotica 1 should be banned but just because of that i dont think what he did was 100% right but i choose to do what i did and i said what i said he didnt tell me to say it.
So if even the "victim" has stated Erotica 1 should not be banned, how can people still not see that this is CCP responding to a CSM members personal vendetta and the outcry of the public, not the needs of the "victim"?

Let's drop the act. We all know why I keep pushing for answers and why we will never get any. This has got nothing to do with rules against harassment, it's PR, plain and simple. A CSM member started a witch hunt, the community got stirred up into a rage shitstorm and CCP buckled to public pressure to save face.



It just shows CCP will cave to the masses despite whats right or wrong.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1474 - 2014-03-29 18:55:46 UTC
The rule is the same as it's always been.

You push CCP's buttons and you get stomped. Happens all the time. From locked posts to perma-bans.

There's no ambiguity here. Just butt hurt on a massive scale by whiners that like to play 'what if' games. Outliers are not the norm in this game. And neither is common sense, apparently.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1475 - 2014-03-29 18:57:08 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

There is a difference between using the game as a tool to inflict real life malice, grief and humiliation versus someone ranting on twitter or quibbling with another player.


You'll have a hard time making your case for "malice, grief, and humiliation" when not even the "victim" involved feels this way.

You could make a case that CCP no longer wants bonus rooms and people being mean toward each other ... well, "just because" CCP wants it that way ... but it seems the opposite is true.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#1476 - 2014-03-29 18:59:05 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:


Actually I have done that and I reached the conclusions that have driven my posts. I still do not agree with how this situation was handled.


Dorn I think everyone realizes you do not agree with how this situation was handled by now.

But if you prefer post it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I am sure it will change everything.

Roll


Dorn Val looks at your corporation and wants you to point to the doll and show everyone where the miner bumpers touched you :)


IIRC I have only ever seen a miner bumper once across several Eve accounts. He was having a hissy fit in local because he got concorded after bravely firing on an un-armed mining ship. Was kinda cute.

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1477 - 2014-03-29 18:59:23 UTC
Darkopus wrote:
so why then do players who have in game actions feel the need to take it to coms and ask for mayo smeared victory pictures. We can go round in a massive circle all day on this and I guess the only people that know are CCP. We can ask them for details and clarifications in fact we did and the response was the post by Falcon with a few follow ups from Guard. CCP are not at liberty nor do they have to give us any more information than they want to. They clearly identified that they examine these things on a case by case basis and also clearly sated that for any situation where you feel threatened IRL to report it to your local law enforcement agency.

The bonus round stuff was an extraordinary case which I agree would be helpfull if we got more details on their lines of thinking, but we know we won't get that. The bottom line here is that this is not a democracy, we play and access this game at CCP's pleasure and when we reach a stage where we don't like what they are peddling there is always the biomass option. However to think that we are in some kind of democracy where we can demand answers from CCP is delusional.
We clearly can demand answers form CCP. They didn't choose to respond to this when it happened, they did it when people protested against it and made a 400 page thread in a day.

I'm of the firm belief that CCPs responsibility should end with EVE, and third party tools, sites and communications services should not have the EULA/ToS covering them, which has been the case since EVE was born. If they want to extend it to cover third party services, then it should cover ALL of them, regardless of medium, so twitter, blogs, forums should ALL be covered by the same rules.

The harassment rules should continue to operate on a case by case basis, and that's fine, but if they are going to choose to extend the EULA/ToS to some third party services, it should be clear exactly which services they extend to and the extent to which they extend.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1478 - 2014-03-29 18:59:24 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The rule is the same as it's always been.

You push CCP's buttons and you get stomped. Happens all the time. From locked posts to perma-bans.

There's no ambiguity here. Just butt hurt on a massive scale by whiners that like to play 'what if' games. Outliers are not the norm in this game. And neither is common sense, apparently.

Mr Epeen Cool


Interesting statement from a man playing a game loaded with outliers, especially when compared to the rest of the mmo scene.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1479 - 2014-03-29 19:01:03 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
The rule is the same as it's always been.

You push CCP's buttons and you get stomped. Happens all the time. From locked posts to perma-bans.

There's no ambiguity here. Just butt hurt on a massive scale by whiners that like to play 'what if' games. Outliers are not the norm in this game. And neither is common sense, apparently.

Mr Epeen Cool
The ambiguity comes with how far into third party services the rules extend. Previously this was "not at all" as clearly stated by GMs. Now, it's clear that has changed. So what has it changed to?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Salvos Rhoska
#1480 - 2014-03-29 19:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
----


Tell you what.

Write up your questions, and address them to CCP directly.

You are asking people who try to answer them, but are not actually in any position to do so.
Hence, everything they answer, is just their opinion.

Write em up and address them to CCP.