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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#581 - 2014-03-28 20:18:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

"I guess you have to draw the line at the point where the victim starts to lose emotional control, and that's a different place for everyone and every situation. And there has to be a willingness to recognize that line and honor it with humane behavior. I don't get a sense from Erotica's recording that there was any intent in ever doing that. Not one bit."

to expand on what mynxee said there is that the person with the position of power in the situation is the one with the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't cross the line. Erotica1 signally failed to do this. She very precisely articulated the philosophical issue with what he did (as opposed to a mere emotional reaction), and expressed clearly what he did wrong. Like yourself, I wanted a good definition of "the line" before being comfortable with CCP proceeding. There it is.


So if I pop someone's assets, they start to freak out in chat, and I poke fun at them for it.... as long as I stop poking fun at them once I realize that they're honestly and truly starting to lose emotional control (but continue blowing up their stuff).... if I do that, then I'm firmly planted in the grey area of "*******" but not 'banned *******"?

.... I'm okay with that.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#582 - 2014-03-28 20:18:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If you continue to interact with him and goad him for no reason other than to goad him, then you're in the red zone.



So anyone that kills miners/missioners in high sec is what youre saying. The guys that "farm tears" so Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, all that is forbidden now?

Because "for no reason other than to goad [them], IS the ADVERTISED reason FOR those things.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#583 - 2014-03-28 20:20:16 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If you continue to interact with him and goad him for no reason other than to goad him, then you're in the red zone.



So anyone that kills miners/missioners in high sec is what youre saying. The guys that "farm tears" so Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, all that is forbidden now?

Because "for no reason other than to goad [them], IS the ADVERTISED reason FOR those things.


No, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying, as you're well aware with your careful choice of exluding what you've quoted for my post.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kaius Fero
#584 - 2014-03-28 20:20:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[.

Refresh us.. why the community should vote fore you? Except being a goon pet,,,

I mean.. if I need a scam king, I vote for any goon...

Anselmo & The Illegals
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#585 - 2014-03-28 20:21:03 UTC
H aVo K wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

"I guess you have to draw the line at the point where the victim starts to lose emotional control, and that's a different place for everyone and every situation. And there has to be a willingness to recognize that line and honor it with humane behavior. I don't get a sense from Erotica's recording that there was any intent in ever doing that. Not one bit."

to expand on what mynxee said there is that the person with the position of power in the situation is the one with the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't cross the line. Erotica1 signally failed to do this. She very precisely articulated the philosophical issue with what he did (as opposed to a mere emotional reaction), and expressed clearly what he did wrong. Like yourself, I wanted a good definition of "the line" before being comfortable with CCP proceeding. There it is.


So if I pop someone's assets, they start to freak out in chat, and I poke fun at them for it.... as long as I stop poking fun at them once I realize that they're honestly and truly starting to lose emotional control (but continue blowing up their stuff).... if I do that, then I'm firmly planted in the grey area of "*******" but not 'banned *******"?

.... I'm okay with that.


Precisely.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#586 - 2014-03-28 20:22:23 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[.

Refresh us.. why the community should vote fore you? Except being a goon pet,,,

I mean.. if I need a scam king, I vote for any goon...


The answer will cost you all your ISK and stuff.

Full API verification will be required.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#587 - 2014-03-28 20:22:48 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Also; any time someone ganks a miner and the miner rages, they ganker will be banned? That meets that emotional requirement that this seems to need. That will change this game HUGELY if true

More of your delicious tears pls.


still unable to differentiate between questions and tears, i see.


LMAO! That was me who said that not him! Your tears are obscuring your vision. Big smile

More please

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#588 - 2014-03-28 20:23:25 UTC
I'm amazed that some posters here still can't differentiate in game play (ganking, scamming and even bumping - all good and CCP sanctioned) versus taking it out of game and subjecting a mark to several hours of TS3 slavery for no in game benefit whatsoever. Roll

To those types of players, I suggest you learn the difference quickly.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#589 - 2014-03-28 20:23:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
H aVo K wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

"I guess you have to draw the line at the point where the victim starts to lose emotional control, and that's a different place for everyone and every situation. And there has to be a willingness to recognize that line and honor it with humane behavior. I don't get a sense from Erotica's recording that there was any intent in ever doing that. Not one bit."

to expand on what mynxee said there is that the person with the position of power in the situation is the one with the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't cross the line. Erotica1 signally failed to do this. She very precisely articulated the philosophical issue with what he did (as opposed to a mere emotional reaction), and expressed clearly what he did wrong. Like yourself, I wanted a good definition of "the line" before being comfortable with CCP proceeding. There it is.


So if I pop someone's assets, they start to freak out in chat, and I poke fun at them for it.... as long as I stop poking fun at them once I realize that they're honestly and truly starting to lose emotional control (but continue blowing up their stuff).... if I do that, then I'm firmly planted in the grey area of "*******" but not 'banned *******"?

.... I'm okay with that.


Precisely.



Ah, so nothing's changed

Good to know

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Drone 16
Holy Horde
#590 - 2014-03-28 20:24:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kaius Fero wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[.

Refresh us.. why the community should vote fore you? Except being a goon pet,,,

I mean.. if I need a scam king, I vote for any goon...


The answer will cost you all your ISK and stuff.

Full API verification will be required.


But what if I write M...A...L..C...A...N...I...S in peanut butter on my chest? Can I get a discount?

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Prince Kobol
#591 - 2014-03-28 20:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Kaius Fero wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[.

Refresh us.. why the community should vote fore you? Except being a goon pet,,,

I mean.. if I need a scam king, I vote for any goon...



In all of this I have been beyond impressed with how Malc has dealt with this.

I do not know if he was designated by the CSM to post here and on the other thread, I do not know if he volunteered or if he was posting as a CSM rep or just a everyday player, either way I am glad I voted for him and it is a crying shame he is not re-running for the next CSM.

Just want to say thanks for the work you did on one this Malc, you actually have done what I though was impossible given me faith in the CSM again.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#592 - 2014-03-28 20:25:03 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Also; any time someone ganks a miner and the miner rages, they ganker will be banned? That meets that emotional requirement that this seems to need. That will change this game HUGELY if true

More of your delicious tears pls.

Apparently the miner can rage all he wants to no avail. This does not protect him in any way.

If he then proceeds to seek official sanction towards the ganker, he will end up ignored... or in hot water himself.

It looks like it's even okay to ask him to sing for his ship... but only right up to the point where he starts in with emotional outbursts. At that point you just step away and be happy with the gank you got, even if you didn't get all the tears you would have preferred in the long run.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#593 - 2014-03-28 20:25:35 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
I'm amazed that some posters here still can't differentiate in game play (ganking, scamming and even bumping - all good and CCP sanctioned) versus taking it out of game and subjecting a mark to several hours of TS3 slavery for no in game benefit whatsoever. Roll

To those types of players, I suggest you learn the difference quickly.


That would be a sensible course of action.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mario Putzo
#594 - 2014-03-28 20:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Malcanis wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
In general, where are we drawing the line, here?


I answered this question a few pages page.

The short answer is that the person controlling the situation has the responsibility to see that it doesn't go too far. I assume that you're sufficiently intelligent to determine when you're about to push someone over the line. This most specifically does not include in game actions: if someone goes into a screaming meltdown because you blew his ship up, then too bad for him. If you continue to interact with him and goad him for no reason other than to goad him, then you're in the red zone.

Scam all you like.
Gank all you like.
Spy all you like.
Awox all you like.

Excercise judgement & discretion when rubbing salt into the wound afterwards.

Is that so hard to understand?


Ya but thats the thing. My line could be a tiny dot compared to someone like you (hypothetically of course) My judgement says, singing a bunch of songs while being scammed is fine. The victim of the scam must realize they have been had. Should responsibility also not fall up on them to say when enough is enough.

That is what is arbitrary about it and why we had 380 page thread (400 including this) discussing the "line". We all don't have the same limits on what and what is not considered harassment.

If I gank the same miner a dozen times in a night because he hasn't learned how to defend himself, or go find a different place...I see that as taking advantage of someone who is being a moron repeatedly, he might consider it griefing and harassment.

Which one of us is right? There are hundreds of systems he can mine in, and nothing prevents me from killing him every time he undocks. Should I have to say, well I killed him 11 times already I guess ill let him go the 12th time just incase he says im harassing him?

Or does it only apply to TS related things, and at what point does it become the "victims" responsibility to remove themselves from a situation they may find uncomfortable.

We can draw arbitrary lines all over the sandbox. It would be nice to know at what point we reach the limits of the sandbox, so EVERYONE knows where that line is, otherwise it amounts to personal opinion, and that changes from me to you, to the next guy, even CCP Employees have differing individual opinions.
Snupe Doggur
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#595 - 2014-03-28 20:25:56 UTC
Six PLEX just purchased from a well-run company that cares about its players.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#596 - 2014-03-28 20:27:04 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Khan D'Amarr wrote:


Different situation entirely so I have no idea.


Ya, **** someone off, permaban, try to get them to kill themselves, 3 months. Seems legit

One time incident versus repeat offender. Public apology versus laughing it off.


public apology, stepped down from CSM immediately and sent the entire contents of his wallet to the wis.... and all that happened the instant he sobered up, the next day. Well before CCP had even commented on the situation.

I'm not a Mittens fan, but at least he understood that he crossed a line, and did what he could to try and make amends.

E1 laughed it off and pre-emptively gave all his stuff to his buds, and "went out with a bang", while asking Sohkar a list of questions designed to try and whitewash this whole thing.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#597 - 2014-03-28 20:27:19 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
I'm amazed that some posters here still can't differentiate in game play (ganking, scamming and even bumping - all good and CCP sanctioned) versus taking it out of game and subjecting a mark to several hours of TS3 slavery for no in game benefit whatsoever. Roll

To those types of players, I suggest you learn the difference quickly.


Yeah because they totally hacked the victim's computer, so they couldnt DC their teamspeak, broke into their house, and duct taped the headphones to their head, while tying them to the chair.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#598 - 2014-03-28 20:27:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
In general, where are we drawing the line, here?


I answered this question a few pages page.

The short answer is that the person controlling the situation has the responsibility to see that it doesn't go too far. I assume that you're sufficiently intelligent to determine when you're about to push someone over the line. This most specifically does not include in game actions: if someone goes into a screaming meltdown because you blew his ship up, then too bad for him. If you continue to interact with him and goad him for no reason other than to goad him, then you're in the red zone.

Scam all you like.
Gank all you like.
Spy all you like.
Awox all you like.

Excercise judgement & discretion when rubbing salt into the wound afterwards.

Is that so hard to understand?
Yes. 2 Questions:
1. Say a player gets pirated, and is requested to sing on teamspeak to save their pod. They then choose to do so. If after that they decide they are upset by the situation. If they report that to CCP, will CCP act?
2. In the above situation, does the willingness of the pirate to honour his deal weight in as a factor in any way?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#599 - 2014-03-28 20:28:03 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Which one of us is right?

Do a George Costanza. Assume your instincts are wrong and do the opposite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKUvKE3bQlY

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#600 - 2014-03-28 20:29:28 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


We can draw arbitrary lines all over the sandbox.


No 'we' can't. But CCP can.

Deal with it or GT...oh hell, you know the rest.

Mr Epeen Cool