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Ishtar Nerf - Discussion
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#41 - 2014-03-28 18:21:27 UTC
Cerb can get 900dps heated with rapid lights (implants and rig) while still fitting tak, etc. or well over 700 with HAMs and still good range options its not alone either if your a little creative many of the other HACs can manage something thats quite potent.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#42 - 2014-03-28 18:24:22 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
the ishtar itself is not OP ..it is quite hard to fit to utilise the full range of sentries .. sentries on the other hand are OP

gardes - 660 dps with 2 DDA's max lv5 skills upto 50km ish with omnis ... even a Talos would have a hard time doing comparable damage at that range..
bouncers doing 580 dps upto 110km then falloff is as far as you can control your drones about 150km with 3 DLA's


With absolute silly amounts of training, sentries can only engage at 60ish KM. This can be stretched with modules and rigs, but now you are cutfing into other things.

That projection is one of the benefits to drones, but you have to admit being able to rip the guns right off a ship in space is a potent trade off.

Regardless, do not spout sentry ranges as if the ship can actually use that range. Targeting range and drone control range rule here.
Zand Vor
Auris Inc
#43 - 2014-03-28 18:33:33 UTC
My point about the Cerb is that there is room for variety in the HAC class as a whole. Max DPS does not make a ship OP by itself, there are just too many other variables the game has to make that the deciding factor.
The Ishtar's placement as the pre-eminent Drone HAC is by design, but it suffers from the previously identified limitations for any/all Drone boats.

I still see plenty of people flying other HACs, and there are plenty of other ships that are effective.
I don't fly Ishtar nor do I have any serious plans to.

Please fix wormhole combat sites: c1 20mil - c2 40 mil - c3 80 mil - c4 160 mil - c5 320 mil - c6 640 mil
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#44 - 2014-03-28 18:52:45 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
the ishtar itself is not OP ..it is quite hard to fit to utilise the full range of sentries .. sentries on the other hand are OP

gardes - 660 dps with 2 DDA's max lv5 skills upto 50km ish with omnis ... even a Talos would have a hard time doing comparable damage at that range..
bouncers doing 580 dps upto 110km then falloff is as far as you can control your drones about 150km with 3 DLA's


With absolute silly amounts of training, sentries can only engage at 60ish KM. This can be stretched with modules and rigs, but now you are cutfing into other things.

That projection is one of the benefits to drones, but you have to admit being able to rip the guns right off a ship in space is a potent trade off.

Regardless, do not spout sentry ranges as if the ship can actually use that range. Targeting range and drone control range rule here.


well the ishtar can get 80km base drone control range at lv5 skills.. plenty for those gardes..

like i said the ishtar itself is not OP since you need loads of mods to get the ranges needed .. targeting (sebo) and drone range
(omnis) and drone control range (DLAS) .. but the dps of sentries combined with the range and tracking is OP..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#45 - 2014-03-28 19:07:42 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

well the ishtar can get 80km base drone control range at lv5 skills.. plenty for those gardes..

like i said the ishtar itself is not OP since you need loads of mods to get the ranges needed .. targeting (sebo) and drone range
(omnis) and drone control range (DLAS) .. but the dps of sentries combined with the range and tracking is OP..

So you admit that you have to seriously cut into your other slots to fit assisting modules in order to make good use of the sentries, turning your ship into a rather wafer thin cruiser, but that the damage is op despite flying a ship that crumples in seconds if caught?

Talos gets 1300 dps when glass cannon, nerf, nerf, nerf. Damage is OP. Terribly OP. Nerf Talos. Ignore drawbacks. Nerf.


Just stop. While you are only this far behind.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#46 - 2014-03-28 19:28:44 UTC
I am at work and cant check.... How is an Istar getting 80k base drone control range? Isnt it 60k with maxxed electronics warfare drone control?
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#47 - 2014-03-28 19:34:24 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am at work and cant check.... How is an Istar getting 80k base drone control range? Isnt it 60k with maxxed electronics warfare drone control?


55 with ewar drone 5 I think.

Then 5km per level for AHAC skill.
Bertral
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2014-03-28 20:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertral
[deleted, I derped]
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#49 - 2014-03-28 20:15:07 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I am at work and cant check.... How is an Istar getting 80k base drone control range? Isnt it 60k with maxxed electronics warfare drone control?


55 with ewar drone 5 I think.

Then 5km per level for AHAC skill.



45km is basic e-war drone skill adds 15km at lv5

HAC skill adds 25km at lv5

so actually 85km

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#50 - 2014-03-28 20:17:05 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

well the ishtar can get 80km base drone control range at lv5 skills.. plenty for those gardes..

like i said the ishtar itself is not OP since you need loads of mods to get the ranges needed .. targeting (sebo) and drone range
(omnis) and drone control range (DLAS) .. but the dps of sentries combined with the range and tracking is OP..

So you admit that you have to seriously cut into your other slots to fit assisting modules in order to make good use of the sentries, turning your ship into a rather wafer thin cruiser, but that the damage is op despite flying a ship that crumples in seconds if caught?

Talos gets 1300 dps when glass cannon, nerf, nerf, nerf. Damage is OP. Terribly OP. Nerf Talos. Ignore drawbacks. Nerf.


Just stop. While you are only this far behind.


again you are talking about the ship being bad .... the OP says its OP .. i am saying the ship is not OP as you have pointed out
i am saying sentries themselves are OP... do read posts before you reply please

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-03-28 20:27:25 UTC
Bertral wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
It is the only HAC that can get 700+ DPS while keeping all their tank and mobility.

The Deimos hits harder and has a better active tank. The problem isn't with it's tank and mobility. It's the range at wich it's able to project that much damage.
As said before, sentries are battleship class weapons. It's like having a talos with HAC ehp.

I get that sentries have downsides but come on :
- you can change damage types
- you have range and tracking bonus from omnidirs (unlike missiles)
- you can adapt your range, just like swapping ammo, by swapping sentry types
- you deal BS-class damage at BS-class range with almost cruiser-class tracking
- you don't need capacitor to keep them shooting, so you can't counter them with neuts
- hell, you don't even need to lock you target, so ECM or damps are useless once they start shooting
- they are immune to tracking disruption
- they don't take high slots
- and most importantly : you can change WEAPONS SYSTEMS during a fight (launch light drones to kill frigs, ECM drones to gtfo, ...). It's like you could swap to light pulses/beams while fighting in a zealot and get a bonus to it.

Downside :
- they can be destroyed.

Which is not that much of a downside, since your opponent is "wasting" dps on your drones instead of shooting you. And it's a downside only if he survives long enough to destroy all the drones you had in stock.
Also I disagree with people who say that a stationary weapon is a downside. Their range is more than enough to project damage about anywhere you would go on a fight. If that's not enought, drop more sentries. People seem to forget that you can just abandon your drones to drop some more and adapt to what happens during the fight. You dont' need to sit on your sentries to swap damage types.
"But if I do that, I'll lose my drones !" Maybe, but your opponent will lose his ship. Pretty good trade if you ask me.

Finally to all people who say "if ishtars were overpowered, you would see them everywhere" ... Seriously ? The are everywhere.
They simply are the most used HACs in the game, pvp and pve.


Wow way to gloss over a f**kton of disclaimers and such with all of your Pro's
Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Sedition.
#52 - 2014-03-28 20:30:27 UTC
If anything I'd nerf the drone hitpoint end of the bonuses. Let them have their DPS, but make their drones easier to take down. Besides, tha'd bolster the role of the Dominix over the Ishtar.

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-03-28 20:35:20 UTC
Johann Rascali wrote:
If anything I'd nerf the drone hitpoint end of the bonuses. Let them have their DPS, but make their drones easier to take down. Besides, tha'd bolster the role of the Dominix over the Ishtar.


So a sentry drone with the signature of a cruiser standing still and the raw HP of about a frigate (counting the ishtars bonuses) isn't easy enough to take down?
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#54 - 2014-03-28 20:36:43 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

again you are talking about the ship being bad .... the OP says its OP .. i am saying the ship is not OP as you have pointed out
i am saying sentries themselves are OP... do read posts before you reply please


You don't look at a weapon and declare it OP on its own. If we did that t2 pulse lasers would be banned because of Scorch.

You look at all ships that use the weapon system to determine if the use of the weapons is OP in context.

Are sentries OP on a Dominix? No, not really. Good yes, but I don't think many would argue OP.

Are sentries OP on an Ishtar? No, not really. Once you factor in the tiny tank necessary to speed tank an Ishtar, it is a decent but not incredibly powerful weapon system overall given the drawbacks. Same situation applies to the VNI.

So if a sentry using Domi is not OP, and a sentry using Ishtar is not OP, and a sentry using VNI is not OP, then how the hell do we arrive at the conclusion that sentries are magically OP?

You can't just blindly separate weapon systems from their ships and then judge one to determine game balance, that is insane.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#55 - 2014-03-28 20:41:23 UTC
I'm tired of stuff being nerfed. Finish the balancing pass and let's get some new content already.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#56 - 2014-03-29 09:57:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Giullare wrote:
Is the ishtar a good ship? YES
Is the ishtar overpowered as u are saying? NO

You can't just consider " ideal conditions " let discuss this:

1) DPS u are claiming is bound to garde so it's thermal, if u switch u lose dps.
2) SENTRY are stationary, u have to sit 0 speed or deploy a new sets if target it's not webbed/scrambled
3) DRONES are distructible (bad cohice to shoot drones anyway) and can't be overloaded.
4) DDA not possible to fit faction

So it's not all milk and honey like u said even if i would reduce optimal range and tracking of all drones ships.


point 2 is a little off .. you can orbit your own sentries to build some transversal



U can't say this on point 2... if u say this u missed the whole sense.

U are the ishtar with sentry, i'm any cruiser/bs hull engaging u.

As i said if i'm not webbed or scrambled i can just move away even if pointed with long point and u are forced to sit on your sentry or if u decide to follow me to keep me pointed u have to scoop them (so no dps meanwhile i keep shooting u) or let them shoot until we are far from them and deploy new one. Sooner or later u will run out of sentries and even if u have enough for 1 engagedment u lose them if u r in a fleet engagement or in a roaming.
Spr09
Abyssal Echoes
Invidia Gloriae Comes
#57 - 2014-03-29 13:48:30 UTC
The ishtar is completely fine, I fly one myself and can say it's not a mobile destruction platform like you say it is.

Sentries keep you locked in place, otherwise you can't recall them and they get destroyed.
Heavy drones do more damage, and can follow you around, but they're slow and have terrible tracking.
Sentries again, get too close and their damage drops straight to 0.
Agonising Ecstacy
Chaos Army
#58 - 2014-03-29 15:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Agonising Ecstacy
Its not overpowered. It may be more powerful than other HACs. But so what?

Its not like Eve is about 1v1 PvP where yote forced to bring the same ship class.

Nerfing it to make it the same as the other HACs just homogenises Eve. Its not FOTM overpowered, just different. Takes a different playstyle, has different weaknesses. Just leave it alone...? If you think its the best ship in the game, then fly it. If you prefer something else, then fly that. But don't fly something else and whine about the Ishtar...
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-03-29 20:00:52 UTC
Swap it's sentry bonuses with heavy drone bonuses. It fits with the gallente brawler style and while it technically has more dps then a sentry set up it exposes the ishtar to much more risk.

Honestly though I'm not sure this is the way to go about it. Something like reducing velocity or adding mass or sig could offset their mobility advantage in relation to other HACs
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#60 - 2014-03-29 20:10:04 UTC
Lyra Gerie wrote:
Swap it's sentry bonuses with heavy drone bonuses. It fits with the gallente brawler style and while it technically has more dps then a sentry set up it exposes the ishtar to much more risk.

Honestly though I'm not sure this is the way to go about it. Something like reducing velocity or adding mass or sig could offset their mobility advantage in relation to other HACs

Oooh, fun. so if we nerf their mobility to the same levels as the other HAC's which deal comparable damage with a certain # of tank mods, do we also get to give them a similar level of tank?

Cause of all the things Ishtar may be, sturdy is not one of them. So if we reduce their mobility, I'd assume that a rapid rise in base tank amounts would be in equal order.

Or are you suggesting we lower the tank, lower the mobility, and leave them both slow and apt to dying when someone looks crosseyed at them?

The real "problem" with the Ishtar is that so few people understand how to fight against kiting ships. Then they get killed by a group of Nano shield Ishtars running circles around them, and cry "NERF ISHTAR! TOO STONK!" when they would have been similarly destroyed by any other fast moving shield HAC with good projection, like the Cerberus.

It as if somehow, the inability to easily kill nanoHAC's with the average slow ass BC kitchen sink response fleet means that the NanoHAC is too powerful instead of BC kitchen sink being a absolute shitcomp to use against nano.

TLDR: Lots of bads out there.