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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2014-03-28 15:09:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
No, what makes you a bad guy is encouraging real life violence, and for trivialising real human suffering.

hope this helps :)


Seeing as none of it is true, it is not helpful at all :)


Salvos, don't make me link posts you've made that you can't conveniently edit. Oh, woops, too late.

What was it you said?

"If someone roundhouse kicked Erotica1, I would laugh and applaud :)"

And I'm going to link that every time you deny stating you would take pleasure from harm coming to Ero and inciting violence. I now have it bookmarked.

Stop lying, and people won't call you a liar.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#182 - 2014-03-28 15:10:51 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
IYou proved that you were of lower moral character than the person you were criticizing.

I can laugh and applaud at whatever I want to, for whatever reasons I want to.
There is no law against laughter or clapping.
I can choose who I do or do not drink with.
My post was valid and coherent according to the Amnesty International definition of what constitutes torture.
I have never claimed, either here on the forums, or in the comm you refer to, to be a lawyer, nor edited out any comment to that effect.
You can judge my "moral character" till the world stops turning.
Doesn't change one iota, that all of your claims, are false.


You know, he kinda has a point.

I mean, I only think torture is wrong when its for a reason other than fun

Does that make me a bad person?

Um..

Well yes it does

But I dont HAVE to care lol

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#183 - 2014-03-28 15:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Ramona McCandless wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc


Curious aside;

Does RPing these things in game count as trivialising them?


I suppose that'd be a case by case basis judgement. I believe it would be possible to roleplay those incredibly awful subjects while also maintaining the sensitivity and gravitas of the subjects - it could even be possible to do it in a way that was commentary on the subjects or awareness raising, which is good.

I don't think it's very likely to see such such a roleplay in a game, and more often than not it'd turn into a tasteless joke. But I guess it's at least possible.

What I find really unforgiving though is bringing those things up and comparing them to rather trivial video-game occurrences, like ganking or scamming, in order to try and make your complaints seem more serious and weighty than they really are. Ripard Teg does it a lot - comparing ganking weak ships to ****, or this bonus room stuff to torture, etc - and I think he's not only a hack, but a despicable excuse of a person. I hope he learns to treat these serious issues with the some sensitivity one day.
Salvos Rhoska
#184 - 2014-03-28 15:13:09 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And I'm going to link that every time you deny stating you would take pleasure from harm coming to Ero and inciting violence. I now have it bookmarked.


Nowhere there does it say I would take pleasure from harm coming to Erotica1, nor have I incited violence anywhere.

You can imply it all you want. Doesn't change the above.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2014-03-28 15:14:23 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And I'm going to link that every time you deny stating you would take pleasure from harm coming to Ero and inciting violence. I now have it bookmarked.


Nowhere there does it say I would take pleasure from harm coming to Erotica1, nor have I incited violence anywhere.

You can imply it all you want. Doesn't change the above.


Laughing indicates pleasure. People don't laugh if they haven't experienced pleasure to some degree. You said you'd laugh and applaud.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#186 - 2014-03-28 15:14:33 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc


Curious aside;

Does RPing these things in game count as trivialising them?


I suppose that'd be a case by case basis judgement. I believe it would be possible to roleplay those incredibly awful subjects while also maintaining the sensitivity and gravitas of the subjects - it could even be possible to do it in a way that was commentary on the subjects or awareness raising, which is good.

I don't think it's very likely to see such such a roleplay in a game, and more often than not it'd turn into a tasteless joke. But I guess it's at least possible.

What I find really unforgiving though is bringing those things up and comparing them to rather trivial video-game occurrences, like ganking or scamming, in order to try and make your complaints seem more serious and weighty than they really are. Ripard Teg does it a lot - comparing ganking weak ships to ****, or this bonus room stuff to torture, etc - and I think he's not only a hack, but a despicable excuse of a person. I hope he learns to treat these serious issues with the some sensitivity one day.


Hmm I guess you dont take much to do with the Blood Raiders then lol

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#187 - 2014-03-28 15:16:01 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
IYou proved that you were of lower moral character than the person you were criticizing.

I can laugh and applaud at whatever I want to, for whatever reasons I want to.
There is no law against laughter or clapping.


Correct.

There is no law against it.

But the question of what you're laughing and clapping at, and why, speaks directly to your moral fibre.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#188 - 2014-03-28 15:17:07 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Nowhere there does it say I would take pleasure from harm coming to Erotica1, nor have I incited violence anywhere.
You can imply it all you want. Doesn't change the above.


Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If someone roundhouse kicked Erotica1, I would laugh and applaud


Roundhouse kick someone = HARM BEFALLS HIM/HER
Applaud and laugh = taking pleasure in events unfolding.

Are you wilfully being obtuse?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2014-03-28 15:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc by comparing it to someone making a player sing on comms for their spacebux? I noticed some rather affective choice words in your post, such as "scumbag", so I just wondered what you thought about the people who sensationalise and exploit real human suffering in order to try and bolster their arguments.

:)

My thoughts are that people who quibble about semantics in order to sidestep the actual issue rarely have good arguments for their positions. It's just another variant of "play the man, not the ball"

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Can't say I disagree, save for one tiny little bit...for some people, that loss of emotional control happens about four seconds after their mining barge gets ganked, or mission boat goes 'splodey. I may be a little less humane than required with those.

The gankers I respect are the ones who will take the time, after the fact, to explain to the victim why they got blown up, and how they can defend themselves in future. I view them as performing an educational service.

Also, it should be noted that when you gank someone, you don't know in advance what their reaction will be, and you have the opportunity to react if they take it much harder than you expected.

I guess one way to put it is that in EVE, it's perfectly OK to stab someone in the back, but one should exercise judgment before twisting the knife.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#190 - 2014-03-28 15:18:23 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.

Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.

But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.

So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.

Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.


But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.

I support this position.


Also well written
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#191 - 2014-03-28 15:19:34 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc


Curious aside;

Does RPing these things in game count as trivialising them?


I suppose that'd be a case by case basis judgement. I believe it would be possible to roleplay those incredibly awful subjects while also maintaining the sensitivity and gravitas of the subjects - it could even be possible to do it in a way that was commentary on the subjects or awareness raising, which is good.

I don't think it's very likely to see such such a roleplay in a game, and more often than not it'd turn into a tasteless joke. But I guess it's at least possible.

What I find really unforgiving though is bringing those things up and comparing them to rather trivial video-game occurrences, like ganking or scamming, in order to try and make your complaints seem more serious and weighty than they really are. Ripard Teg does it a lot - comparing ganking weak ships to ****, or this bonus room stuff to torture, etc - and I think he's not only a hack, but a despicable excuse of a person. I hope he learns to treat these serious issues with the some sensitivity one day.

Couldn't agree more, I really lost any semblance of respect for the man.
I'm rather uncomfortable with that moralistic arse reprenting me in any capacity.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Ali Aras
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#192 - 2014-03-28 15:21:08 UTC
I, too, have been largely holding back from public comment, but talking to people privately, following the threads, and consulting with CCP. Glad to see this statement posted.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#193 - 2014-03-28 15:21:20 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

The gankers I respect are the ones who will take the time, after the fact, to explain to the victim why they got blown up, and how they can defend themselves in future. I view them as performing an educational service.


So no ganking without explaining to your target why and how to prevent it.

And in the rare cases where your target needs some time before he/she realizes how he/she feels about the ordeal it's harrasment.

Can you, just to be as clear as possible, state which timeperiod you have in mind between the act of ganking/scamming/asking to sing songs and the discovery of the target that his/her feelings have been hurt?

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Higgs Foton
Mission And Mining Inc
#194 - 2014-03-28 15:21:56 UTC
Onwards to 400 pages. Make it happen people. :)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#195 - 2014-03-28 15:22:30 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
What are your thoughts on trivializing the terribleness of cancer by also applying the term "illness" to a common cold?


That's not comparable at all, "illness" is a widely used term to describe many different things, **** and torture are not - they're quite well defined, even with specific laws and such to cover what they are and are not.

I would, however, find it distasteful to say things like "you're the cancer ruining this community" to someone whose actions I didn't like, or "you look like you have cancer" to someone who looks particularly frail. Worse again if someone was using the word purely as an appeal to emotion in an inflammatory attack piece.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Hmm I guess you dont take much to do with the Blood Raiders then lol


I shoot some of them occasionally, that's about it :)
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-03-28 15:23:54 UTC
Danalee wrote:
So no ganking without explaining to your target why and how to prevent it.

Did I say that? I rather think not. See my comment in the same reply about semantic quibblers.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Sturmwolke
#197 - 2014-03-28 15:24:06 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

CCP, in collaboration with the CSM, have agreed and would like to state in the strongest possible terms and in accordance with our existing Terms of Service and End User License Agreement, that real life harassment is morally reprehensible, and verifiable examples of such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.


Good post, but I'd like a clarification on "disciplinary action against game accounts".
Does this constitute all known accounts held by the player? or just a single account?
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#198 - 2014-03-28 15:24:19 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Needless to say there are a LOT of questions that need pretty firm answers.


guess you won't get them.
If I were not playing Eve many of the questions would seem a bit unnecessary to me as in: WTF would do such a thing because of a game anyway.
Alas, Eve's serios spaceship business so people indeed do have such brilliant ideas.

I would not try to get someone banned by faking a recording. I doubt this will be succesful. And I doubt that much proof will be needed that the perpetrator is the actual perpetrator should future bonus room breakdowns become public.
Ssieth
Celestial Inc
Dracarys.
#199 - 2014-03-28 15:24:52 UTC
Trebor: Thanks for adding some, judiciously worded, clarification to the excessively guarded CCP posts.

I have to say it's a shame to see you're standing for CSM 9 :(

W-Spacer.  Bittervet. 75% PvP, 25% assorted other stuff.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2014-03-28 15:24:54 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

The gankers I respect are the ones who will take the time, after the fact, to explain to the victim why they got blown up, and how they can defend themselves in future. I view them as performing an educational service.


So no ganking without explaining to your target why and how to prevent it.

And in the rare cases where your target needs some time before he/she realizes how he/she feels about the ordeal it's harrasment.

Can you, just to be as clear as possible, state which timeperiod you have in mind between the act of ganking/scamming/asking to sing songs and the discovery of the target that his/her feelings have been hurt?

D.

Bear


This, exactly this. Every single gank I've performed, I've tried to explain to the player how to avoid it in future. Some of them just get emotionally out of control and don't care, they just want to rage. So where is the line? And if CCP does ban Ero, will they qualify that line to him? I'm listening to the recording myself and this is VERY analogous to a few of my own experiences of gank victims I've invited onto coms and tried to calmly explain why they lost their ship. At what point in that person's rage is it me harassing them?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104