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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#161 - 2014-03-28 14:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: H aVo K
EDIT: - wrote a bunch of stuff before seeing the next post:

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.

But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.


(gah... missed this at first)

Thanks Trebor! =)

If that's the "party line", then that's totally cool.... as long as it's understood that some people will be a total wreck *before* you ask them to sing for their ship.
Agata Matahari
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2014-03-28 14:56:54 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.

Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.

But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.

So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.

Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.

But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.


A Man, a word!!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#163 - 2014-03-28 14:57:08 UTC
So to be completely clear, how do you know if someone is harassing someone else? If I were to say "That guy right there took me onto a TS3 server and harassed me for hours on end", do CCP ban them?

The reason companies don't generally take a stance on things that happen outside of the game is because they are impossible to prove. In this specific instance, it's been recorded by the guy doing it, but in absence of that there's no way to prove it, so is the rule "any reports of harassment will be met with a ban" or "if you don't record it you can tell people to go kill themselves"?

Also, in what media does this take place? If I'm on a completely different forum or a blog and I personally attack someone else, am I now going to get a nice ban from CCP? How do you decide where the line of jurisdiction ends, or do you not worry about lines (maybe you're the DDOJSIOC, 10 points for naming the reference without google)? How do you ensure that a person listed in an attack is actually that person? If I were to go off and record my mate pretending to harass me then claim it was done by someone in game, how would you prove otherwise?

Needless to say there are a LOT of questions that need pretty firm answers.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#164 - 2014-03-28 14:57:20 UTC
Cool I am comfortable that I can kill murder maim exsanguinate and do and speak of other far more unspeakable acts in game without recourse to an enforced morality.

Yippee!

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#165 - 2014-03-28 14:57:20 UTC
Honestly, the outcome doesn't suprise me, CCP never took any form of RL harassment or abuse lightly.

At all times, we should remember EvE is a game, a place where people meet to interact, either through words, trades or virtual ammo exchanges. These experiences can be positive or negative, but are confined within EvE itself.

If you decide to bring this experience out of Eve, while using Eve as an excuse, then by all means keep in mind that from that moment on, you act as ambassador of EvE. If your actions paint EvE & CCP in a bad light, don't be shocked when there's consequences when it turns out bad.
In the reverse, there's also plenty of good things that can happen when you bring in RL within EvE, as the PLEX for Good programs show.

We're a community with extreme polarities, we as EvE community bring the best and worst an MMO can offer into the light. As a community, we should also pay attention to ourselves, to curb the bad extremes as not to taint us all, but also praise the good stuff we as community are able to pull off.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Salvos Rhoska
#166 - 2014-03-28 14:57:34 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
No, what makes you a bad guy is encouraging real life violence, and for trivialising real human suffering.

hope this helps :)


Seeing as none of it is true, it is not helpful at all :)

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#167 - 2014-03-28 14:57:37 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.

Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.

But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.

So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.

Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.

But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.

I support this position.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#168 - 2014-03-28 14:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.

Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.

But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.

So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.

Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.

But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.


Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc by comparing it to someone making a player sing on comms for their spacebux? I noticed some rather affective choice words in your post, such as "scumbag", so I just wondered what you thought about the people who sensationalise and exploit real human suffering in order to try and bolster their arguments.

:)
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#169 - 2014-03-28 14:59:19 UTC
Best non-announcement ever.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#170 - 2014-03-28 14:59:44 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc


Curious aside;

Does RPing these things in game count as trivialising them?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#171 - 2014-03-28 15:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcia en Welle
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:
So in a hypothetical situation where you are able to scam someone of all their in-game assets(which is totally fine). If after accomplishing this fact you use their greed, and sense of helplessness and the emotional value those assets have to them to harass and humiliate a player for 2 hours, including harassing other people in the room , then post this online, and link to it. That person would be permanently banned from this community and game correct? With some level of punishment including up to and including permanent bans for any accomplices.

If that was the case I could continue to play this game with a clear conscience. If that was not the case and this hypothetical person was ever seen in game again. I'm not sure I could support CCP with my income, no matter how much I enjoy the game and its stories.


Translation : get rid of people I don't like or lose my 15bux times however many accounts!

I once told a beautiful woman I dated who I thought was spending too much time with her business partner dude something similar: It's either him or me, CHOOSE!! I hear her and her husband/business partner (and her new girlfriend who is half Brazilian/half French) are very happy now all living together....... Sad I've learned to stfu now.

Door is that way ---->

That sounds messed up, and also sounds like you were right as she is now living happily with said business partner.... So bad example.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#172 - 2014-03-28 15:00:45 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
No, what makes you a bad guy is encouraging real life violence, and for trivialising real human suffering.

hope this helps :)


Seeing as none of it is true, it is not helpful at all :)


It is true and you know it. You said you'd laugh if you saw Erotica1 assaulted and you equated what happened in the bonus room to TORTURE when it was not. Then you lied about it, much like lying about your insinuation that you were a lawyer on voice comms (we heard you). You proved that you were of lower moral character than the person you were criticizing.
Lady Areola Fappington
#173 - 2014-03-28 15:01:45 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I have refrained from public comment on this issue because of all the ongoing CSM/CCP consultations, but now that CCP has issued their statement, I feel it is only appropriate to give my perspective.

Lying, cheating, general douchebaggery and the harvesting of tears are all part of the "sandbox" that is the game of EVE Online.

But that said, all of us have a responsibility to recognize when a fellow player is starting to lose emotional control -- when things stop being a game -- and respond in a humane manner. And deliberately trying to induce and deepen that loss of control is reprehensible conduct that should shock and dismay the vast majority of the community.

So the tl/dr for me is: Feel free be a douchebag inside the sandbox, but if you kick the sand outside of the sandbox, don't be surprised if CCP kicks you out of the sandbox as well.

Stuff like losing your sh*t on comms and bitching out the people in your fleet is not something I would worry about. Nor is making people sing for their ship.

But if you make someone sing for their ship and then sadistically wratchet up the psychological pressure until they are a total wreck, then you're a real-life scumbag, and I won't shed a tear if CCP decides they no longer care to do business with you.



Can't say I disagree, save for one tiny little bit...for some people, that loss of emotional control happens about four seconds after their mining barge gets ganked, or mission boat goes 'splodey. I may be a little less humane than required with those.

Still, screwing with someone just to screw with 'em is bad form. As I often tell newbie gankers, scammers, and ne'erdowells, "keep it classy".

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#174 - 2014-03-28 15:02:02 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kethry Avenger wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hello everyone,

For the last few weeks the community has been debating the topic of real life harassment, and its connection to the EVE Universe. The EVE Universe Community Team has been working on this issue for some time now, and has had extensive discussions about it with your elected representatives, the Council of Stellar Management.

EVE is a virtual world whose inhabitants have more freedom to play the villain and experiment with various backhanded tactics than in any other MMO. The freedom to scam and commit piracy, espionage, and extortion are all fundamental to the EVE Online experience, and CCP will never change that. However, it is important to remember that the EVE universe is a virtual world, and behavior of this nature should remain firmly within that virtual world.

While the content of online interactions between players cannot realistically be gated within our game worlds, CCP strongly disapproves of clear and extraordinary levels of real life harassment against our players in the outside world.

CCP, in collaboration with the CSM, have agreed and would like to state in the strongest possible terms and in accordance with our existing Terms of Service and End User License Agreement, that real life harassment is morally reprehensible, and verifiable examples of such behavior will be met with disciplinary action against game accounts in accordance with our Terms of Service.

Harassment poses a potential problem in any virtual world, and CCP has dealt with cases of this nature for more than a decade. We will continue to monitor and evaluate claims of harassment based on our policies and acceptable standards of behavior.

As always, CCP will not discuss specific cases of policy enforcement. However, if you have any questions regarding this statement, please feel free to pose them in this thread, and we will respond to the best of our ability.

- The EVE Universe Community Team



So in a hypothetical situation where you are able to scam someone of all their in-game assets(which is totally fine). If after accomplishing this fact you use their greed, and sense of helplessness and the emotional value those assets have to them to harass and humiliate a player for 2 hours, including harassing other people in the room , then post this online, and link to it. That person would be permanently banned from this community and game correct? With some level of punishment including up to and including permanent bans for any accomplices.

If that was the case I could continue to play this game with a clear conscience. If that was not the case and this hypothetical person was ever seen in game again. I'm not sure I could support CCP with my income, no matter how much I enjoy the game and its stories.


Translation : get rid of people I don't like or lose my 15bux times however many accounts!

I once told a beautiful woman I dated who I thought was spending too much time with her business partner dude something similar: It's either him or me, CHOOSE!! I hear her and her husband/business partner (and her new girlfriend who is half Brazilian/half French) are very happy now all living together....... Sad I've learned to stfu now.

Door is that way ---->

That sounds messed up, and also sounds like you were right as she is now living happily with said business partner.... So bad example.


Derail

She wasn't, until I said something about it, which i confirmed...after the fact.....

/Derail
Dr Silkworth
#175 - 2014-03-28 15:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Silkworth
Reprehensible:

1.
deserving censure or condemnation.

So Mr Falcon since you'll answer any questions, and you have stated that " that real life harassment is morally reprehensible", and from what we can tell, you have neither censured or condemned, if the word morally can provide us with any more information than your ambiguous post?

I would like to know if your position on harassment moral or legal grounds. I am assuming moral. Am I correct? And if so, what is your position on laws regarding harassment around the world and why are they not of any importance relative to morality.?
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2014-03-28 15:02:12 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Hi Trebor. What are your thoughts on trivialising real human suffering, such as ****, torture, etc by comparing it to someone making a player sing on comms for their spacebux? I noticed some rather affective choice words in your post, such as "scumbag", so I just wondered what you thought about the people who sensationalise and exploit real human suffering in order to try and bolster their arguments.

:)

What are your thoughts on trivializing the terribleness of cancer by also applying the term "illness" to a common cold?

.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#177 - 2014-03-28 15:03:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I think the behaviour and attitude Salvos demonstrates in these threads is toxic for the community. He repeatedly expressed the personal joy he'd feel if other members of the community were physically assaulted, and has demonised as many people as he could to try and push his agenda.

It's rather gross.


Yep, and it's that same guy who has the single highest post count in the thread that got locked, the thread where he tried to internet lawyer a guy into a ban for being toxic to the community.

It's like I've said before, the so called good guy/freedom fighter types (Salvos, Ripard, ect ect) in EVE are the real problem, not the Erotica1s


They remind me of the politicians who froth at the mouth while screaming "won't someone please think of the children!" while pushing their own pet agendas.... which have nothing to do with protecting the children....
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#178 - 2014-03-28 15:05:08 UTC
404 Error Post Not Found

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#179 - 2014-03-28 15:06:15 UTC
In America, a city will try to boost its tourist income with a campaign to advertise why people should visit it.

Las Vegas is a city where prostitution and gambling are legal, and hence when people visit, they may get involved in some adult activities of the sort that they don't want to go home and tell everybody.

So Las Vegas has a slogan that has become a bit of a meme in America:

"What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas"


CCP's stance on that appears to be similar. What happens in this game should stay in the game.

And I have a hard time seeing why anybody could disagree with that.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Salvos Rhoska
#180 - 2014-03-28 15:07:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
IYou proved that you were of lower moral character than the person you were criticizing.

I can laugh and applaud at whatever I want to, for whatever reasons I want to.
There is no law against laughter or clapping.
I can choose who I do or do not drink with.
My post was valid and coherent according to the Amnesty International definition of what constitutes torture.
I have never claimed, either here on the forums, or in the comm you refer to, to be a lawyer, nor edited out any comment to that effect.
You can judge my "moral character" till the world stops turning.
Doesn't change one iota, that all of your claims, are false.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent