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Dual sovereignty for Luminaire solar system Gallente/Caldari

Author
Erik Kaassan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#261 - 2014-03-19 23:58:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Erik Kaassan
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
First of all, Andreus, I forgot how well you can speak when the spirit seizes you. That was very well said, very well indeed. And James, do you think I want to live in a cluster where Diana Kim is right and I'm wrong? Perhaps what I said wasn't logically supported to the extent it could have been, but it was very much from the heart.

I feel marginalised in my own community - for the last year all I have seen is the Federation on the offensive, crowing about their gains when the pendulum is with them, scorched earth and booby traps when it isn't. Using their strength like a blunt instrument because they can - even though their decision to storm the Shiigeru arguably cost many more lives than it ever could have saved.

The best of us die. The rest of us go on. It makes me heartsick.

It troubles me that you feel so Pieter.

But your disquietude aside, many seem to council a blissful forgetfulness regarding the Provosts role in the State until very recently.

Thus I hope you will forgive our caution.

The quintessential threat poised by the Shiigeru to both the body and soul of the Federation required its removal.

Had the cost in felling her been ten fold it would have remained necessary.

An honorable and equitable peace is now possible.

Perhaps we would all be better served exploring that.


Of course we would, James. A thousand times better served than we are in chewing over the dry and dusty bones of this war - want to hazard an educated guess which will actually get done?


Allow me to answer that: old predjudices die hard.

I have no ties to luminaire or caldari prime except that I am caldari myself. However I must insist that although the shiigeru (damn the autocorrecting text program) being removed potentially saved lives, the cost was not at all justified. The Gallente perferred to let guns do the negotiating because of their advantage in strength. Rational but far from what I would say is morally acceptable. My own people are not blameless for this incident but the Gallente imperialist attitudes touched off this conflict.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#262 - 2014-03-20 00:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
TomHorn wrote:
Stitcher i would like to ask you question only need a yes or no answer. Tibus Heth and the nationalist movement created the meritocracy of merit.You agree with that right.


No.

In (possibly futile) anticipation of the idea that you might demand an explanation for that stance rather than spluttering incoherently at the notion that somebody might not share your worship of Heth's regime, here it is: The concept of meritocracy existed long before the Provists came along. It may not have been properly implemented, and they maybe succeeded in inspiring the bulk Caldari populace into reclaiming the State from nepotists and corrupt playboys, I'll go that far. But did they create it? Absolutely not.

If anybody deserves being named as the State's original patron of meritocracy in the age of corruption and insider hiring, it would be the late Otro Gariushi-sensei, and he would probably deny the honour. He was certainly a staunch anti-Provist, as evidenced by his own speeches around about the time of the homeworld troubles. Do the words "We must never be united in hate" sound familiar?

YC100 was a good year for Ishukone. Out went Les Akkilen and his board of face-stuffing cronies and in came the most popular CEO the Caldari had seen since Matias Sobaseki. It took only a handful of months for the corporation to turn around and become probably the first functionally meritocratic Okusaiken in the State. THAT is meritocracy in action, and it happened a decade before anybody had ever heard of Citizen Heth the MTAC driver and bottom-rung failure, let alone "his" New Meritocracy.

But let's entertain for a moment the fantasy that Heth really did invent, mastermind and inspire the creation of meritocracy across the whole State. Well done him - a good service to his people. ONE good service. Versus an ocean of at best mere adequacy churned by deep and incompetent currents of rage, hatred, violent phobia and fascist delusions of monopoly.

Where I'm from, a single moment of inspired competency doesn't counterweigh that kind of ineptitude. Where I'm from, one good deed doesn't excuse a lifetime of crime.

Where I'm from, leaders who send their toadies into a courtroom wielding an executive cease-and-desist have lost all claim to leadership. If the people at the top do not agree to be bound by the law, then it is worse than meaningless - it becomes a weight tied to the citizenry's ankles, used to drag them down when the Oyabun who has stolen their society decides to throw them into the harbour.

Quote:
The word "provist" it means you have a passion of patriotism. Their is a camaraderie, or a feeling of brotherhood, unique bond that unites group of people with similiar view.


Aye, a Provist has a passion for patriotism in much the same way that an alcoholic has a passion for alcohol - an excessive, all-consuming obsession with it.

I'm a patriot, and a damned proud one. But for me, it's the equivalent of a beer with dinner, or a social whisky with friends. A pleasure, a social lubricant and at worst a happy vice.

For a Provist? It's their world, their definition. They cease to be Caldari and instead become a husk, animated only by their fanaticism.

Caldari are persons. We are individuals, pulling together. Heiian dictates the sacrifice of self-interest for the greater good but in order for that to happen there must first be a self-interest to sacrifice. Caldari should be substantial, should be thinkers and artists, scholarly and soldierly. As deep as oceans, as strong as mountains and as cunning as the Winds. Heiian should compel us to enrich ourselves at every turn so that if, and when, we are called upon to put ourselves aside and do our duty, what we give to the greater good is something worthwhile and competent.

Anything that involves devolving into a two-dimensional, monomotivated mockery of a person is, in my view, a betrayal of that ethos.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#263 - 2014-03-20 01:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Erik Kaassan wrote:
The Gallente preferred to let guns do the negotiating because of their advantage in strength.

So we prefered?

You know our mind so well then.

Had the thing not been there it wouldn't have had to be removed.

Lets not forget why it was there; “Do what we want or we will glass Gallente Prime.

The motives of peacemakers indeed.

Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rational but far from what I would say is morally acceptable.

You will forgive me if I don’t pay much heed to lectures on morality from a Caldari loyal to the State.

Erik Kaassan wrote:
My own people are not blameless for this incident but the Gallente imperialist attitudes touched off this conflict.

No the invasion of Federal space caused that, the placement of a Titan in our home system caused that, the thuggish actions of you leadership supported by the vast majority of your population caused that… but not blameless… indeed.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Of course we would, James. A thousand times better served than we are in chewing over the dry and dusty bones of this war - want to hazard an educated guess which will actually get done?

It wasn’t much of a hazard was it Pieter.

For that at least I am sorry.

Oh, and you my lecture me on morality if you please, the other fellow... no.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#264 - 2014-03-20 02:02:46 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Your President Foiritan signed a treaty which cede control of Caldari Prime and handed it back to the State yc110.

Yes, well we learned how to keep and enforce treaties form the State.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2014-03-20 02:44:49 UTC
TomHorn you haven't payed for my dry cleaning bill yet! Check your mailbox I forwarded it to you!

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-03-20 03:35:46 UTC
So, TomHorn did actually pay for my dry cleaning and gave me some fine cigars as well! While he did unfairly blame Liberals for the spill, that can be looked over.

-Paying the bill

-Wallet information

While I still consider his political views and motives to be extreme and questionable, TomHorn is a sophisticated man who is willing to spend a small amount of time and effort to correct personal mistakes. While I still wholeheartedly disagree with his views, he did gain a small amount of my personal respect.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#267 - 2014-03-20 07:38:46 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Your President Foiritan signed a treaty which cede control of Caldari Prime and handed it back to the State yc110.

Yes, well we learned how to keep and enforce treaties form the State.

We should do with current treaty the same you did with previous.
And not just stop with kicking oppressors out from Caldari Prime, but do the same with Gallente Prime what gallenteans did to Caldari Prime.
Maybe after that they will start understanding us, and peace might be possible.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Erik Kaassan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-03-20 17:39:45 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
The Gallente preferred to let guns do the negotiating because of their advantage in strength.

So we prefered?

You know our mind so well then.

Had the thing not been there it wouldn't have had to be removed.

Lets not forget why it was there; “Do what we want or we will glass Gallente Prime.

The motives of peacemakers indeed.

Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rational but far from what I would say is morally acceptable.

You will forgive me if I don’t pay much heed to lectures on morality from a Caldari loyal to the State.

Erik Kaassan wrote:
My own people are not blameless for this incident but the Gallente imperialist attitudes touched off this conflict.

No the invasion of Federal space caused that, the placement of a Titan in our home system caused that, the thuggish actions of you leadership supported by the vast majority of your population caused that… but not blameless… indeed.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Of course we would, James. A thousand times better served than we are in chewing over the dry and dusty bones of this war - want to hazard an educated guess which will actually get done?

It wasn’t much of a hazard was it Pieter.

For that at least I am sorry.

Oh, and you my lecture me on morality if you please, the other fellow... no.


Last I checked, it was named CALDARI prime. That is the home of MY people, not yours. You are one to speak of morality when your own government keeps the peace by launching the occasional lynch mob or campaign of ethnic repression.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#269 - 2014-03-26 19:48:30 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Your President Foiritan signed a treaty which cede control of Caldari Prime and handed it back to the State yc110.

Yes, well we learned how to keep and enforce treaties form the State.

We should do with current treaty the same you did with previous.
And not just stop with kicking oppressors out from Caldari Prime, but do the same with Gallente Prime what gallenteans did to Caldari Prime.
Maybe after that they will start understanding us, and peace might be possible.

Wouldn't work you would just **** us off with the attempt and we would be right back to square one with this whole war. Let the diplomats do there job.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#270 - 2014-03-27 02:27:04 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Your President Foiritan signed a treaty which cede control of Caldari Prime and handed it back to the State yc110.

Yes, well we learned how to keep and enforce treaties form the State.

We should do with current treaty the same you did with previous.
And not just stop with kicking oppressors out from Caldari Prime, but do the same with Gallente Prime what gallenteans did to Caldari Prime.
Maybe after that they will start understanding us, and peace might be possible.

Wouldn't work you would just **** us off with the attempt and we would be right back to square one with this whole war. Let the diplomats do there job.

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#271 - 2014-03-27 02:49:19 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

You don't need to do anythig of the sort. You want to, you feel that you deserve to, but you don't need to. The administration you are dealing with isn't unaware of your feelings on the matter, enough so that we are not just going to hand over a potential foothold in our system so you can attempt exactly what you just described.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#272 - 2014-03-27 08:56:19 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

You don't need to do anythig of the sort. You want to, you feel that you deserve to, but you don't need to. The administration you are dealing with isn't unaware of your feelings on the matter, enough so that we are not just going to hand over a potential foothold in our system so you can attempt exactly what you just described.

Feelings are not important.

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#273 - 2014-03-28 01:02:39 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.

Understand! You're not interested in understanding your only interested in killing us all. You have said so. The only way to deal with stiff necked Caldari like you is to burn the ground out from under them. The only thing you have going for you is that you don’t hide what you feel! You don’t hide your hatred or your ambitions. Like allot of other bit talkers in the State do. That and you're kind of cute.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#274 - 2014-03-28 03:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.

Understand! You're not interested in understanding your only interested in killing us all. You have said so. The only way to deal with stiff necked Caldari like you is to burn the ground out from under them. The only thing you have going for you is that you don’t hide what you feel! You don’t hide your hatred or your ambitions. Like allot of other bit talkers in the State do. That and you're kind of cute.

Most of us "bit talkers" shun Kim for that very reason. It doesn't take more than sixty seconds of scrolling to figure that out, instead of blithely applying her twisted delusions to the rest of us.

The civil make time for the civilized, unless they prove to be otherwise. Are you civilized, and worth the time to speak with? Or are you just another mouthpiece who believes attention must be given?

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#275 - 2014-03-28 04:47:45 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

You don't need to do anythig of the sort. You want to, you feel that you deserve to, but you don't need to. The administration you are dealing with isn't unaware of your feelings on the matter, enough so that we are not just going to hand over a potential foothold in our system so you can attempt exactly what you just described.

Feelings are not important.

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.


Wrong, emotion is the very heart of the matter. You, much to my amusement, often let yours get the better of you.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#276 - 2014-03-28 05:15:41 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

You don't need to do anythig of the sort. You want to, you feel that you deserve to, but you don't need to. The administration you are dealing with isn't unaware of your feelings on the matter, enough so that we are not just going to hand over a potential foothold in our system so you can attempt exactly what you just described.

Feelings are not important.

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.


Wrong, emotion is the very heart of the matter. You, much to my amusement, often let yours get the better of you.

Irony, ne?

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#277 - 2014-03-28 05:17:50 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

That's what we MUST do for diplomats would be able to negotiate.
This must be done in order for gallente to understand our position.

And if they can't...
Well, then simply force them out, fight all over and don't waste time on diplomacy, since it would mean that they are animals who can't understand humans anyway.

You don't need to do anythig of the sort. You want to, you feel that you deserve to, but you don't need to. The administration you are dealing with isn't unaware of your feelings on the matter, enough so that we are not just going to hand over a potential foothold in our system so you can attempt exactly what you just described.

Feelings are not important.

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.


Wrong, emotion is the very heart of the matter. You, much to my amusement, often let yours get the better of you.

Irony, ne?

Happens to the best of us.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#278 - 2014-03-28 07:51:21 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.

Understand! You're not interested in understanding your only interested in killing us all. You have said so. The only way to deal with stiff necked Caldari like you is to burn the ground out from under them. The only thing you have going for you is that you don’t hide what you feel! You don’t hide your hatred or your ambitions. Like allot of other bit talkers in the State do. That and you're kind of cute.

I said I am interesting in cleaning our space from gallentean infestation, with fire and steel. Yes, it means killing.
But not "you all", only those, who threat us.

Obviously, you are a threat to the State and thus will be killed, disregarding where you would prefer to hide, even outside of the State territory. Have a nice day.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#279 - 2014-03-28 07:52:51 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:

Most of us "bit talkers" shun Kim for that very reason. It doesn't take more than sixty seconds of scrolling to figure that out, instead of blithely applying her twisted delusions to the rest of us.

The civil make time for the civilized, unless they prove to be otherwise. Are you civilized, and worth the time to speak with? Or are you just another mouthpiece who believes attention must be given?

I would like to remind to everyone, that Saya is a traitor, and her words against me is a groundless propaganda.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#280 - 2014-03-28 15:21:25 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

The problem is that they can't understand our position, and while they can't understand us, peace is not possible, only temporary ceasefires.

Understand! You're not interested in understanding your only interested in killing us all. You have said so. The only way to deal with stiff necked Caldari like you is to burn the ground out from under them. The only thing you have going for you is that you don’t hide what you feel! You don’t hide your hatred or your ambitions. Like allot of other bit talkers in the State do. That and you're kind of cute.

I said I am interesting in cleaning our space from gallentean infestation, with fire and steel. Yes, it means killing.
But not "you all", only those, who threat us.

Obviously, you are a threat to the State and thus will be killed, disregarding where you would prefer to hide, even outside of the State territory. Have a nice day.

Ok, well politics aside... So are you seeing anyone?