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News: Operation Highlander Monument Unveiled on Caldari Prime

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2014-03-28 02:15:39 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
I have been asked by someone I respect to apologize to Ms. Oniseki and Mr. Tuulinen. Not necessary for what I said, but how I said it. You're my enemy, you're the enemy of the Federation. I just remember it isn't only Caldari who have been victimized on (pauses) Caldari Prime. Its my home too. But you Mr. Ixiris can rot.


Oh, I remember the awfulness committed by the Provists on Caldari Prime. Maker above, I watched them destroy two Charons full of their own people, casually, for the crime of peacefully protesting so I can only imagine what they must have been willing to do to Federal Citizens.

Reparations are certainly due to those who suffered during the Reoccupation. (See, I'm searching for a word that sits neutrally between Occupation and Liberation!) As for me being your enemy - technically my Militia commission went inactive at the beginning of this week, so officially I'm no longer your enemy. Of course we're currently engaged in fighting a guerrilla war against the Federal occupiers of Enaluri, so I suppose if you count an enemy of the FDU to be an enemy of the Federation, I still am.

Depends on whether you feel that Militia trying to occupy an historically Caldari system constitute 'The Federation', I suppose.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#142 - 2014-03-28 02:38:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
I have been asked by someone I respect to apologize to Ms. Oniseki and Mr. Tuulinen. Not necessary for what I said, but how I said it. You're my enemy, you're the enemy of the Federation. I just remember it isn't only Caldari who have been victimized on (pauses) Caldari Prime. Its my home too. But you Mr. Ixiris can rot.

Oh, I remember the awfulness committed by the Provists on Caldari Prime. Maker above, I watched them destroy two Charons full of their own people, casually, for the crime of peacefully protesting so I can only imagine what they must have been willing to do to Federal Citizens.

Reparations are certainly due to those who suffered during the Reoccupation. (See, I'm searching for a word that sits neutrally between Occupation and Liberation!) As for me being your enemy - technically my Militia commission went inactive at the beginning of this week, so officially I'm no longer your enemy. Of course we're currently engaged in fighting a guerrilla war against the Federal occupiers of Enaluri, so I suppose if you count an enemy of the FDU to be an enemy of the Federation, I still am.

Depends on whether you feel that Militia trying to occupy an historically Caldari system constitute 'The Federation', I suppose.

Distinctions like that don’t matter much as long as there are State ships in Federal space or State boots on Federal soil. But I don’t fault you for defending your own people in your own territory. I'm not asking for reparations. The last thing I want is a handout from a Caldari. I just want you to understand its my home and just like you I am going to fight for it.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#143 - 2014-03-28 03:39:15 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:

Distinctions like that don’t matter much as long as there are State ships in Federal space or State boots on Federal soil. But I don’t fault you for defending your own people in your own territory not asking for reparations. The last thing I want is a handout from a Caldari. I just want you to understand its my home and just like you I am going to fight for it.

So, got a question for you here. What happens if the impossible, as it were, comes to pass, and Home gets given back to the State? I'm kinda curious as to what you'd do in that event, so lets assume for the sake of discourse that its possible.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2014-03-28 05:35:38 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:

Distinctions like that don’t matter much as long as there are State ships in Federal space or State boots on Federal soil. But I don’t fault you for defending your own people in your own territory not asking for reparations. The last thing I want is a handout from a Caldari. I just want you to understand its my home and just like you I am going to fight for it.

So, got a question for you here. What happens if the impossible, as it were, comes to pass, and Home gets given back to the State? I'm kinda curious as to what you'd do in that event, so lets assume for the sake of discourse that its possible.


I guess we just have to make the rest of the Federation want to hand over the other half of Home. Democracy should win out at that point. To be honest I don't have an especial yen to do it by fire and sword - quite happy to do it by trade and diplomacy. Actually, I'd prefer that. Right now this war is screwing us Patriots just as hard as you Liberals - loads of our property is in the CEWPA warzone and it just can't be developed properly with the 'Forever War' going on.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#145 - 2014-03-28 06:50:43 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Agiri Falken wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:

Distinctions like that don’t matter much as long as there are State ships in Federal space or State boots on Federal soil. But I don’t fault you for defending your own people in your own territory not asking for reparations. The last thing I want is a handout from a Caldari. I just want you to understand its my home and just like you I am going to fight for it.

So, got a question for you here. What happens if the impossible, as it were, comes to pass, and Home gets given back to the State? I'm kinda curious as to what you'd do in that event, so lets assume for the sake of discourse that its possible.


I guess we just have to make the rest of the Federation want to hand over the other half of Home. Democracy should win out at that point. To be honest I don't have an especial yen to do it by fire and sword - quite happy to do it by trade and diplomacy. Actually, I'd prefer that. Right now this war is screwing us Patriots just as hard as you Liberals - loads of our property is in the CEWPA warzone and it just can't be developed properly with the 'Forever War' going on.

Agreed. I'd still like to hear Na'Dare's answer though, if only academically.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#146 - 2014-03-28 07:15:33 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

By the one God Pieter I want a just an honorable peace.

If you really want peace, get the hell out your peoples from OUR planet, before we turned them into bloody mush of flesh.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-03-28 07:21:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

I guess we just have to make the rest of the Federation want to hand over the other half of Home. Democracy should win out at that point. To be honest I don't have an especial yen to do it by fire and sword - quite happy to do it by trade and diplomacy. Actually, I'd prefer that. Right now this war is screwing us Patriots just as hard as you Liberals - loads of our property is in the CEWPA warzone and it just can't be developed properly with the 'Forever War' going on.

They use democracy only when it is profitable for them.
They won't start elections, knowing they will lose it, you see. They might do it, only if they pump our home planet with more gallenteans and order them to vote for the Federation.

And no, it is simply impossible to get it back by trade and diplomacy. Don't forget, we are dealing with gallenteans. They won't just give it or trade away, unless it will be like ten or hundred times less profitable for us.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#148 - 2014-03-28 15:37:19 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:
So, got a question for you here. What happens if the impossible, as it were, comes to pass, and Home gets given back to the State? I'm kinda curious as to what you'd do in that event, so lets assume for the sake of discourse that its possible.

I have more faith in our elected leaders than to think that they would allow such a dishonorable act to occur. I think Operation Highlander demonstrated that such a decision is highly unlikely reguarding the Federations commitment to its citizens on (pauses) Caldari Prime. But I respect the democratic ideal. So hypothetically Ms. Falken If the Federal Senate expressing the popular will of the “People” decide to return (pauses again) Caldari Prime to the State then I will respect the decision. Until then I will do whatever I can to see that doesn’t happen.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#149 - 2014-03-28 15:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
It is clear that the issue of Caldari Prime will not be one which is easily solved, and I honestly expect the situation to remain largely unchanged for at least the near term. Pilot Na'Dare's situation is exactly what I speak of when I say that the planet belongs to those who live or have been born on it. He did not occupy Caldari Prime he is a Federation Citizen who was born there, his very individual history is tied to the planet. He is only one example of many Gallenteans both baseliners and capsuleers who have been born on, or immigrated to and share the same "Home" as the Caldari.

Not being born on Gallente Prime does not make him any less Gallentean, than a Caldari who was not born on Caldari Prime. We are not denying the Caldari their ancestral homeworld, we are merely asking for a mutual respect, and a recognition towards the Gallentean population which has become a culture of its own on the planet. We desire an understanding and a security that the Federation citizens on Caldari Prime will be treated equally, that they will retain their human rights, and they will be respected when they also proclaim Caldari Prime as their "Home".

As I have said before, those who live on the planet by birth or by legal immigration have more right to the planet than those who do not. This is not meant as an attack against heritage.

There are many State citizens who I respectfully disagree with, those who I would willingly shake hands with after an engagement on the battlefield. What bothers me, however are those Federation Citizens who so casually assume it would be wise to uproot and move their fellow Gallenteans who have made "Home" their home. Your positon speaks from one of appeasement, not one of strength or of respect. You poorly represent the values of The Federation when you would so dismissively transplant whole families throughout the Federation, it speaks poorly of your so called humanitarianism.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#150 - 2014-03-28 15:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Here's the funny thing. Do you know what Caldari have historically done to annexed districts and their residents?

Historically, we've put them to work on a fair wage and incorporated them into the system. when Placid was overrun by the STPRO early in the war, megacorporate administration was installed on a lot of worlds, and the first thing they did was employ the existing residents as on-the-ground leadership and colonial leadership. A lot of colony administrators in the warzone nowadays keep their position no matter who's in charge because when the Federation's in control they've been doing such good jobs that they get re-elected, and when the State takes over they're recognised as having earned the position on merit.

Captured troops are offered fair pay and the opportunity to defect and join the winning cause. Local talent is recruited, local knowledge valued, local infrastructure exploited and local culture respected because those things are practical. When you take over an area you can either subdue, alienate, oppress and humiliate the locals, which will ony foment and inspire resistance movements, or you can let their lives tick over more or less unchanged, except that now everything is cleaner, living is cheaper, work is more available, wages are higher and the employment package includes dental and medical.

Guess which one results in fewer ongoing problems for the occupation? It's a zealous resistance indeed that continues to fight when their own neighbors and kin are begging them to stop.

Provism was an anomaly in that respect. One we're expunging.

Sure, that's the ideal rather than the reality a lot of the time, but I invite you to remember that the one person who ever ordered that Home should be burned rather than compromised was disobeyed, ousted and is now the State's #1 most wanted.

If you don't trust our word, trust our self-interest. And our self-interest is for a politically stable, prosperous Caldari Prime. We will do whatever it takes to secure that, and the most efficient and profitable route would be to buy it and honour whatever contract the Federation drafted.

Oh, and Na'Dare - if you balk at calling it "Caldari Prime", remember that the other name for that world is Home. If you were born there, you're entitled to use it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#151 - 2014-03-28 17:51:14 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Here's the funny thing. Do you know what Caldari have historically done to annexed districts and their residents?

Historically, we've put them to work on a fair wage and incorporated them into the system. when Placid was overrun by the STPRO early in the war, megacorporate administration was installed on a lot of worlds, and the first thing they did was employ the existing residents as on-the-ground leadership and colonial leadership. A lot of colony administrators in the warzone nowadays keep their position no matter who's in charge because when the Federation's in control they've been doing such good jobs that they get re-elected, and when the State takes over they're recognised as having earned the position on merit.

Captured troops are offered fair pay and the opportunity to defect and join the winning cause. Local talent is recruited, local knowledge valued, local infrastructure exploited and local culture respected because those things are practical. When you take over an area you can either subdue, alienate, oppress and humiliate the locals, which will ony foment and inspire resistance movements, or you can let their lives tick over more or less unchanged, except that now everything is cleaner, living is cheaper, work is more available, wages are higher and the employment package includes dental and medical.

Guess which one results in fewer ongoing problems for the occupation? It's a zealous resistance indeed that continues to fight when their own neighbors and kin are begging them to stop.

Provism was an anomaly in that respect. One we're expunging.

Sure, that's the ideal rather than the reality a lot of the time, but I invite you to remember that the one person who ever ordered that Home should be burned rather than compromised was disobeyed, ousted and is now the State's #1 most wanted.

If you don't trust our word, trust our self-interest. And our self-interest is for a politically stable, prosperous Caldari Prime. We will do whatever it takes to secure that, and the most efficient and profitable route would be to buy it and honour whatever contract the Federation drafted.

Oh, and Na'Dare - if you balk at calling it "Caldari Prime", remember that the other name for that world is Home. If you were born there, you're entitled to use it.

What you described may be the States stated policy. But it was not my experience. Nor that of many others. I am a citizen of the Federation not an employee of the State. I appreciate your words and the “respect” you showed me and others like me by saying them. Though Cladari Prime is my home I cannot call it Home. I think we all know why. In your vision of the future I would have no voice.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#152 - 2014-03-28 18:49:48 UTC
You really don't get what we're about, do you?

Look: the Provists were a glitch. They were not ever devoted to the ideal of meritocracy, they just used it as the rallying cry to get people behind them. What they were ABOUT was populism, dictatorship and prejudice. That's not the Caldari way, and that's why we got rid of them.

I don't care what your experience of Provists was, your experience of Caldari will be different because - and this is important - Provists and Dragonaurs are not Caldari. They don't abide by the State's philosophy, they don't respect its purpose, they have no regard for its traditions and they see no value in its principles save where those things can be exploited to feed more money, men and materiel into the grinder. They are Caldari only by ethnicity.

To me, and to a great many others, the word refers more to a philosophy than it does an ethnic group. It means placing competence ahead of all other concerns. It means doing whatever is practical to secure the greatest common good. It means economy and wisdom, intellectual courage and honesty, and disciplined self-improvement. It means expanding your awareness outwards from the individual to embrace the Self of Group, and the Self of Humanity.

Do we live up to that standard? No, not always, of course not. I'm something of a dreamer and idealist in that regard. But that doesn't change the idea, nor does it change that that's what so many billions of us spend our lives working to accomplish. You've seen a loud minority of bigots, and from that you're deriving your opinion of the quiet, hardworking and sensible majority. You need a bigger sample size before your conclusion is valid.

And yes, you would have a voice. Voices are necessary, voices are meritocratic. It's just that we don't think opinions are worthy of automatic respect. Opinions are only as valuable as their content, and voices are only as good as the opinions they express. That doesn't mean that nobody's allowed to speak - after all, the words that aren't spoken can never earn respect. Nobody ever quoted a silent man. A state which suppresses what its citizens have to say suppresses the opportunity to hear thoughts that could improve it, which is the antithesis of meritocratic thinking.

Alternatively, you could continue to be a citizen of the Federation. Reasonable Caldari are not calling for Federation citizens to have to become State citizens, we're perfectly capable and happy to have foreign nationals living among us. All we are asking for is the right to govern our own planet.

And I say again - Caldari Prime is your Home too, and you are entitled to call it that. Freeze anybody who says otherwise.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#153 - 2014-03-28 20:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Though Caldari Prime is my home I cannot call it Home. I think we all know why. In your vision of the future I would have no voice.


I for one would welcome you to call it Home alongside me. I'm sure a great many others would as well.

I'm sure you've seen her winters. You've seen the waves on her seas. You've seen Caldari Prime claim the lives of those unfit and foolish enough to challenge her. It's no easy paradise, and only those with the mettle to eke out an existance on that hard world can call it home. The only reason after all this time we have any claim to do so is because our very existence and way of life is because we survived. It's the method we used to survive. Maybe radiators and climate domes have made life easier back there... but I think there is some recognition to be made to those who have lived there these past 200 years.

If you were born on Caldari Prime, if you lived through her winters, then Caldari Prime is home to you just as it is to us. Caldari Prime chooses her own people. We can fight over who administrates the planet, but it is Caldari Prime and her Winds that shall decide who are truly fit to live there.

Personally, I don't need the Gallente to leave. I don't think Ishukone desires the Gallente to leave. The Gallenteans, Intaki, Mannar, Minmatar, and Jin-Mei? They're welcome to stay.

It's the Federation that needs to leave.

I hope you understand.

Katrina Oniseki

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#154 - 2014-03-28 22:42:41 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Here's the funny thing. Do you know what Caldari have historically done to annexed districts and their residents?

Historically, we've put them to work on a fair wage and incorporated them into the system. when Placid was overrun by the STPRO early in the war, megacorporate administration was installed on a lot of worlds, and the first thing they did was employ the existing residents as on-the-ground leadership and colonial leadership. A lot of colony administrators in the warzone nowadays keep their position no matter who's in charge because when the Federation's in control they've been doing such good jobs that they get re-elected, and when the State takes over they're recognised as having earned the position on merit.

Captured troops are offered fair pay and the opportunity to defect and join the winning cause. Local talent is recruited, local knowledge valued, local infrastructure exploited and local culture respected because those things are practical. When you take over an area you can either subdue, alienate, oppress and humiliate the locals, which will ony foment and inspire resistance movements, or you can let their lives tick over more or less unchanged, except that now everything is cleaner, living is cheaper, work is more available, wages are higher and the employment package includes dental and medical.

Guess which one results in fewer ongoing problems for the occupation? It's a zealous resistance indeed that continues to fight when their own neighbors and kin are begging them to stop.

Provism was an anomaly in that respect. One we're expunging.

Sure, that's the ideal rather than the reality a lot of the time, but I invite you to remember that the one person who ever ordered that Home should be burned rather than compromised was disobeyed, ousted and is now the State's #1 most wanted.

If you don't trust our word, trust our self-interest. And our self-interest is for a politically stable, prosperous Caldari Prime. We will do whatever it takes to secure that, and the most efficient and profitable route would be to buy it and honour whatever contract the Federation drafted.

Oh, and Na'Dare - if you balk at calling it "Caldari Prime", remember that the other name for that world is Home. If you were born there, you're entitled to use it.

What you described may be the States stated policy. But it was not my experience. Nor that of many others. I am a citizen of the Federation not an employee of the State. I appreciate your words and the “respect” you showed me and others like me by saying them. Though Cladari Prime is my home I cannot call it Home. I think we all know why. In your vision of the future I would have no voice.

Only if you choose not to use it. I could go back and forth on the matter, point and counter, forever. So could you. So I'll leave that alone. I do have another question... Is it the freedoms of the Gallente living there that you're trying to represent? Or is it a matter of whose flag flies over the tundra? Also, what ties make it home to you?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2014-03-28 22:46:53 UTC
The question I have is whether the Gallente nationalists truly want us to treat those Gallente citizens in our areas of Home (bearing in mind that we intend to expand those areas through peaceful means) equally, or do they want special treatment.

Personally speaking, I've already expressed my happiness at the concept of treating them equally - which would include offering them employment and citizenship within the State. I've no idea why anyone would expect me to view that offer as anything other than the best treatment that could be offered.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#156 - 2014-03-28 23:58:46 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The question I have is whether the Gallente nationalists truly want us to treat those Gallente citizens in our areas of Home (bearing in mind that we intend to expand those areas through peaceful means) equally, or do they want special treatment.

Personally speaking, I've already expressed my happiness at the concept of treating them equally - which would include offering them employment and citizenship within the State. I've no idea why anyone would expect me to view that offer as anything other than the best treatment that could be offered.

In all reality, "special" treatment wouldn't even be an issue. If the Federation truly believes their citizens on Caldari Prime (those who were actually there through the last five years, to be realistic) deserve a break, why not provide funding for their cost of living? It's inexpensive (don't you dare tell me that monster Fed economy of yours can't handle it, people), doesn't make them deadweight on our own system, and satisfies the need there seems to be for them to remain Federal citizens.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#157 - 2014-03-29 00:32:43 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
You really don't get what we're about, do you?

Alternatively, you could continue to be a citizen of the Federation. Reasonable Caldari are not calling for Federation citizens to have to become State citizens, we're perfectly capable and happy to have foreign nationals living among us. All we are asking for is the right to govern our own planet.

And I say again - Caldari Prime is your Home too, and you are entitled to call it that. Freeze anybody who says otherwise.

You say we don’t understand you. But I think we do. I don’t blame all Caldari for what happened on Caldari Prime. But you're asking me to do something that you wont. To put aside the past and focus on the future. I don’t want to be a State citizen and I don’t intend to be considered “foreign” on the planet of my birth. I thank you for what you have said, I truly do, because I think you mean it. But you ask too much.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#158 - 2014-03-29 00:36:44 UTC
So, if history is important, you're putting your thirty-odd years up against hundreds of thousands?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#159 - 2014-03-29 00:42:39 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Though Caldari Prime is my home I cannot call it Home. I think we all know why. In your vision of the future I would have no voice.

I for one would welcome you to call it Home alongside me. I'm sure a great many others would as well.

Maybe radiators and climate domes have made life easier back there... but I think there is some recognition to be made to those who have lived there these past 200 years.

If you were born on Caldari Prime, if you lived through her winters, then Caldari Prime is home to you just as it is to us. Caldari Prime chooses her own people. We can fight over who administrates the planet, but it is Caldari Prime and her Winds that shall decide who are truly fit to live there.

Personally, I don't need the Gallente to leave. I don't think Ishukone desires the Gallente to leave. The Gallenteans, Intaki, Mannar, Minmatar, and Jin-Mei? They're welcome to stay.

It's the Federation that needs to leave.

I hope you understand.

I do understand what you want. I even understand why you want it. I will even admit I can empathise with your point of view reguarding “Home”. But how can one stay and the other go? If the Federation cedes Caldari Prime then what will we be? Strangers in our own land? Subject to forigen laws? Adrift in a culture that isn’t our own amongst a hostile people? I appreciate your sentiments I really do. I hope you understand that I don’t mean any disrespect to you personally but I have no interest in being Caldari.
Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#160 - 2014-03-29 00:56:05 UTC
Agiri Falken wrote:
Only if you choose not to use it. I could go back and forth on the matter, point and counter, forever. So could you. So I'll leave that alone. I do have another question... Is it the freedoms of the Gallente living there that you're trying to represent? Or is it a matter of whose flag flies over the tundra? Also, what ties make it home to you?

First I represent nobody but myself and of course it matters to me what flag flies over my home. Doesn’t it to you? But I have spoken with several people a lot wiser than I am about this. So let me say this. I love the Federation. I love the ideals upon which she was founded and towards which she still strives. I understand that sometimes hard choices have to be made and that those choices cause gain and loss. To answer your question directly. Yes I could live with State control over Caldari Prime if it strengthened the Federation and promoted peace. But the “freedoms” of Federal citizens must be guaranteed.