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Tiericide - Blockade Runner and Deep Space Transport
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Gothikia
Le Goobers
#41 - 2014-03-22 13:53:40 UTC
The suggestions of adding in bubble immunity are very misguided. If you have a shred of skill you wouldn't be jumping into bubbles anyways, use a damn inty scout! The last thing we need is for EVE to be constantly dumbed down and yet again be put on easy mode.

The way they should be fixed is to get rid of the rep bonus, make it a resist bonus, boost the EHP slightly, maybe boost the cargo space a tiny bit and allow us to fit a decent tank on there.

Lets look at the Viator for example.

Quote:

Role Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator.
...


Yeah, sure it can, with just it's one high slot. They do need looked at, but any suggestion of bubble immunity is quite frankly just stupid. Even interceptors didn't really need it since you're going over 5 KM/s and quickly escaped from them. But y'know :easymode:


:bittervet:

<3 Gothie
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-03-22 15:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcia en Welle
Sorry I havent read the thread, although I was contemplating this matter recently.

Personally I think covert transport are in a pretty good place right now, so little is needed to change on them.

DST on the other hand, I was thinking a about giving them bubble immunity and a +6 WCS built into the hull. Then keep the align times and tank the same as it is now. Basically the point is if they want to kill it then they need to bring enough firepower to kill it in it's align time, as obviously any industrial is going to be a sitting duck once scrammed, no matter how much EHP and resistances you give to it.

Also a scout will not always work if the bubble is from a cloaked interdictor, so bubble immunity is very useful for anyone serious about transporting in null sec.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#43 - 2014-03-24 19:34:05 UTC
think harder and more loudly!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#44 - 2014-03-24 19:46:50 UTC
Aside from fixing the bonuses to be actually useful to each ship, I think DSTs and BRs are mostly fine. The fact that BRs are more popular and versatile isn't a problem. If the DST has a rather niche role that's okay.

DST's should get like 70% of the cargobay of a max-cargo itty 5 as a fixed bay (perhaps modified by the ship skill). Then it can actually fit for defense/agility.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#45 - 2014-03-24 19:49:55 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Aside from fixing the bonuses to be actually useful to each ship, I think DSTs and BRs are mostly fine. The fact that BRs are more popular and versatile isn't a problem. If the DST has a rather niche role that's okay.

DST's should get like 70% of the cargobay of a max-cargo itty 5 as a fixed bay (perhaps modified by the ship skill). Then it can actually fit for defense/agility.



Aside from the fact that they should at least be the size of the largest racial hauler available I agree with you. No cargo size reduction. If nothing else it should be expanded to like 70-90K considering the cost.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2014-03-24 19:51:16 UTC
Batelle wrote:
DST's should get like 70% of the cargobay of a max-cargo itty 5 as a fixed bay (perhaps modified by the ship skill). Then it can actually fit for defense/agility.

I think this would be a very good idea for it. It would have a very good cargo bay without modules and can be fit for multiple tasks, while it could also be fit as a large cargo carrier and make a spot for itself between industrials and freighters.

I know someones going to say "but we have orca for that", but i don't like the fact that an orca needs to somehow fill that gap even though it's supposed to be a mining support ship.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#47 - 2014-03-24 20:04:03 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:

Aside from the fact that they should at least be the size of the largest racial hauler available I agree with you. No cargo size reduction. If nothing else it should be expanded to like 70-90K considering the cost.


I would personally be okay with this, but iirc DST's carrying slightly less than max itty-5 is how it currently is, and that's with the DST being fully cargo fitted. I think giving it what i described would still be a rather large buff.

The main thing is that DST's shouldn't have to give up like 80% of their potential cargo just to be tanky (or fit for agility/wcs), which is kinda how it is now. Right now a fully-tanked DST is kind of pointless, you're better off with a faster and safer cargo-fit BR.

Placing DSTs somewhere in-between orcas and the itty 5 would be nice, although I think anything more than 50k m3 is a bit much.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#48 - 2014-03-24 21:32:41 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:

Aside from the fact that they should at least be the size of the largest racial hauler available I agree with you. No cargo size reduction. If nothing else it should be expanded to like 70-90K considering the cost.


I would personally be okay with this, but iirc DST's carrying slightly less than max itty-5 is how it currently is, and that's with the DST being fully cargo fitted. I think giving it what i described would still be a rather large buff.

The main thing is that DST's shouldn't have to give up like 80% of their potential cargo just to be tanky (or fit for agility/wcs), which is kinda how it is now. Right now a fully-tanked DST is kind of pointless, you're better off with a faster and safer cargo-fit BR.

Placing DSTs somewhere in-between orcas and the itty 5 would be nice, although I think anything more than 50k m3 is a bit much.



Yes right now with the way cargo is done they carry slightly less than an itty 5. I am saying that they should be specialized at carrying cargo through deep (i.e. null/W-space). That means they should carry general cargo at or greater level of an iteron mk V. And I reason this from living in a WH for a long time. Orca's are massive and highly vulnerable and t1 haulers are slow and vulnerable. Freighters and JF's are pretty much the same but with huge volumes and normally run only a jump or two at most through w-space.

In null sec you're required to use a freighter to move a station egg or upgrade platform around. That is ok. The DST would be extremely valuable with more cargo for moving POS fuel blocks if nothing else. Reducing the number of trips from a freighter docked in a high sec through the hole.

Even if it were 100K cargo it wouldn't be zomg op. But it should be more than the specialized cargo bays of some of the gallente haulers (67K epithal for PI I think). Hell if the Occator just had the Epithal's 67K but general instead of a PI specific bay it would be a damned nice upgrade and well within the current meta of ship lines.
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#49 - 2014-03-25 00:27:30 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:
crazy proposition:

-as someone stated, keep blockade runners as the stealthy and agile cloaked hauler, give it more agility bonuses or make them inmune to bubbles

-leave the tanking bonuses to the DSTs and adjust them to the current racial tanking doctrines (minmatar activer shield, caldari passive shield, gallente active armor, amarr buffer armor)

-change the +2 warp strength for something more ambitious, add an experimental jump drive. the DST would be the bulkier version which uses a jump device in order to avoid gatecamps....while the blockade runner can just get away undercovered, the jumpdrive used by the DSTs would be similar to those of black ops...


Personally one of the more interesting ideas.

The problem is that the "hauler" hulls are vastly less numerous (not counting the specialized T1s of the former Itty line), than the pew pew ships.

Basically haulers are:
T1 industrial: basic hauler
T1 Freighter: honking ass version of above
Orca: Can be tanker than a Freighter and can haul fitted ships, but is slow (ignoring mining bonuses since we're talking hauler use)
T2 Blockade Runner: About the same as a small T1 Industrial, but with fast aligns and a cloak
T2 Deep Space Transport: big, slow, and not so tanky
T2 Jump Freighter: not as big as a Freighter but has Jump engines

Besides the obvious hauler somewhere between Industrial and Freighter (or larger than BR and smaller than JF), there is also the "move fitted ship" role which is vastly underserved in High-Sec (except by the Orca, which is bluntly a hack), and I would argue served poorly in Low-Sec and null by Carriers (its like talking about moving 3 rail-gun modules by using a JF vs a BR).

Honestly, I'd love to see the Deep Space Transports become something somewhere between a JF and an Orca (in terms of hauling).

Smaller hauling capacity than a JF, but with a jump drive and the ability to haul fitted ships (up to 1-2 BSes).

Useful in High-Sec for transporting/moving pre-fitted ships in bulk where Carriers can't go, Jump Drive for low/null, or can fly through gates like a Jump Freighter. For added fun, maybe give it a BlackOps style Jump Drive so it needs covert cynos?

I'm sure there are holes in this idea, feel free to pick, (like I could stop you if I wanted to Lol).

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Justin Cody
War Firm
#50 - 2014-03-25 14:23:12 UTC
JP Nakamura wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
crazy proposition:

-as someone stated, keep blockade runners as the stealthy and agile cloaked hauler, give it more agility bonuses or make them inmune to bubbles

-leave the tanking bonuses to the DSTs and adjust them to the current racial tanking doctrines (minmatar activer shield, caldari passive shield, gallente active armor, amarr buffer armor)

-change the +2 warp strength for something more ambitious, add an experimental jump drive. the DST would be the bulkier version which uses a jump device in order to avoid gatecamps....while the blockade runner can just get away undercovered, the jumpdrive used by the DSTs would be similar to those of black ops...


Personally one of the more interesting ideas.

The problem is that the "hauler" hulls are vastly less numerous (not counting the specialized T1s of the former Itty line), than the pew pew ships.

Basically haulers are:
T1 industrial: basic hauler
T1 Freighter: honking ass version of above
Orca: Can be tanker than a Freighter and can haul fitted ships, but is slow (ignoring mining bonuses since we're talking hauler use)
T2 Blockade Runner: About the same as a small T1 Industrial, but with fast aligns and a cloak
T2 Deep Space Transport: big, slow, and not so tanky
T2 Jump Freighter: not as big as a Freighter but has Jump engines

Honestly, I'd love to see the Deep Space Transports become something somewhere between a JF and an Orca (in terms of hauling).

Smaller hauling capacity than a JF, but with a jump drive and the ability to haul fitted ships (up to 1-2 BSes).

Useful in High-Sec for transporting/moving pre-fitted ships in bulk where Carriers can't go, Jump Drive for low/null, or can fly through gates like a Jump Freighter. For added fun, maybe give it a BlackOps style Jump Drive so it needs covert cynos?

I'm sure there are holes in this idea, feel free to pick, (like I could stop you if I wanted to Lol).


Your definition of what haulers are falls a bit short due to new ship lines. You should re-examine them. DST's are supposed to be spacious and tanky...but yes slow. Blockade Runners are not only fast but also apparently unknown to you...they can be covert bridged by a black ops BS. They can also light a covert cyno...although only the prowler is currently truly capable at this in a reasonable manner.

No need for jump drive equipped haulers when you can covert bridge a warpy-cloaky secretly into any system in EVE short of W-space. The DST needs to be about 70K in discrete cargo (expanders have no effect) and have their slots for tank. The Bustard and Mastodon need slot increases in their mids to make them viable along side a base HP increase. And I do believe that having bubble immunity is necessary for travel in a null sec specialized vessel. Get rid of the warp care stabilization. I can always fit warp core stabs if I want to balance against tank.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-03-25 15:42:43 UTC
Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting. If DST were to be made bubble immune, they would have to have NO highslots, or CCP doing something radical like making ice products be only able to be carried in a special bay, and adding bays to covops, recon, blops, etc.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#52 - 2014-03-25 15:48:22 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting. If DST were to be made bubble immune, they would have to have NO highslots, or CCP doing something radical like making ice products be only able to be carried in a special bay, and adding bays to covops, recon, blops, etc.



Ice products issue will be solved with new reprocessing/compression updates incoming (check dev blogs). yes they will have high slots and only have one. They are obscenely slow so I'd not worry about DST cynos. It is far more likely to fit a cloak as it does now to do cloak+mwd trick. Your vision of combat DST's running around dropping cynos everywhere is a bit paranoid and inaccurate.

I can already fit a crow with a cyno...scram and 2 medium shield extenders and screw you over much cheaper.
JP Nakamura
Union of Intergalactic Miners and Nano Assemblers
#53 - 2014-03-25 23:47:16 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
JP Nakamura wrote:
Silivar Karkun wrote:
crazy proposition:

-as someone stated, keep blockade runners as the stealthy and agile cloaked hauler, give it more agility bonuses or make them inmune to bubbles

-leave the tanking bonuses to the DSTs and adjust them to the current racial tanking doctrines (minmatar activer shield, caldari passive shield, gallente active armor, amarr buffer armor)

-change the +2 warp strength for something more ambitious, add an experimental jump drive. the DST would be the bulkier version which uses a jump device in order to avoid gatecamps....while the blockade runner can just get away undercovered, the jumpdrive used by the DSTs would be similar to those of black ops...


Personally one of the more interesting ideas.

The problem is that the "hauler" hulls are vastly less numerous (not counting the specialized T1s of the former Itty line), than the pew pew ships.

Basically haulers are:
T1 industrial: basic hauler
T1 Freighter: honking ass version of above
Orca: Can be tanker than a Freighter and can haul fitted ships, but is slow (ignoring mining bonuses since we're talking hauler use)
T2 Blockade Runner: About the same as a small T1 Industrial, but with fast aligns and a cloak
T2 Deep Space Transport: big, slow, and not so tanky
T2 Jump Freighter: not as big as a Freighter but has Jump engines

Honestly, I'd love to see the Deep Space Transports become something somewhere between a JF and an Orca (in terms of hauling).

Smaller hauling capacity than a JF, but with a jump drive and the ability to haul fitted ships (up to 1-2 BSes).

Useful in High-Sec for transporting/moving pre-fitted ships in bulk where Carriers can't go, Jump Drive for low/null, or can fly through gates like a Jump Freighter. For added fun, maybe give it a BlackOps style Jump Drive so it needs covert cynos?

I'm sure there are holes in this idea, feel free to pick, (like I could stop you if I wanted to Lol).


Your definition of what haulers are falls a bit short due to new ship lines. You should re-examine them. DST's are supposed to be spacious and tanky...but yes slow. Blockade Runners are not only fast but also apparently unknown to you...they can be covert bridged by a black ops BS. They can also light a covert cyno...although only the prowler is currently truly capable at this in a reasonable manner.

No need for jump drive equipped haulers when you can covert bridge a warpy-cloaky secretly into any system in EVE short of W-space. The DST needs to be about 70K in discrete cargo (expanders have no effect) and have their slots for tank. The Bustard and Mastodon need slot increases in their mids to make them viable along side a base HP increase. And I do believe that having bubble immunity is necessary for travel in a null sec specialized vessel. Get rid of the warp care stabilization. I can always fit warp core stabs if I want to balance against tank.



Amazing. I'm assuming they can also fit fitted ships, since that was the middle part of the idea you glossed over.

I missed CCP adding these T2 ship transporters. I seem to be so completely unfamiliar with them. I'll go try one out immediately.

CCP: 10+ years of Harvesting players Tears  (latest efforts being Source Limited Edition, and Alliance Logo Revised Policies)
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-03-26 04:48:01 UTC
I haven't read through all of the posts, I admit.

Back when the t1 haulers got balanced I had some thoughts about the future of t2 haulers. There really is no point to the current type variation in the two. It's basically cloak + small hold vs stabs + larger hold. Cloak almost always trumps stabs, so even if the other characteristics of the DSTs were changed, it still generally makes more sense to take the BR. The size of the cargo bay on a DST isn't so much larger that it justifies the other hassles that go with it. So, I think they should just have large and small cloaked haulers and drop the DST altogether. It might make sense to have a tier 2 and tier 3 (not t3, Tier 3), with the tier 3 having more high slots and additional cargo room. The basic idea being that the class is really a covert ops vehicle. The jump fuel and resupply options for covert ops fleets could use some love. (Preferably, said love should be delivered along with BLOPS improvements)

Bokononist

 
Justin Cody
War Firm
#55 - 2014-03-26 12:12:25 UTC
JP Nakamura wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
JP Nakamura wrote:
[quote=Silivar Karkun]crazy proposition:

Stuff you said.


Stuff I said.



Amazing. I'm assuming they can also fit fitted ships, since that was the middle part of the idea you glossed over.

I missed CCP adding these T2 ship transporters. I seem to be so completely unfamiliar with them. I'll go try one out immediately.


So you want a T2 Orca for no reason. I get it. The answer is 'not yet' and DST's aren't the answer to that. Right now there are Rorquals, Orcas and Carriers that can carry fitted vessels. Try flying one of those. Hell...two of them have jump drives already and the rorqual has a clone vat bay so you can even jump to your ships.

There is no reasonable role fo r a sub-cap version of that. Some small ships (frigates) can be shipped fitted inside the largest t1/t2 haulers. If you run a tower you can keep fitted ships in the corporate hangar array...assemble them and move them to the SMA. I'm not sure of your issues at playing this game but if you want a hauler to fly around with multiple fitted BC's or BS's in cargo then I think you need to fly a carrier.

Otherwise ship them packaged.
Pashino
Venice Academy
#56 - 2014-03-26 17:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pashino
Looking at it from the other way - What Role does CCP intend for the DST's and, thus, what capabilities does it require to reasonably fill that role?

From the description it seems clear they expect ppl to move cargo thru lowsec/nullsec in the ships. For the playerbase to use them, it must be possible to have a good success rate operating the ships. They also need to have some advantage over BR's or they won't be used. BR's are small, fast, and cloaky but don't carry a lot of cargo.

Logically, DST's should carry a lot more cargo and somehow be able to get around most of low/null space successfully most of the time. We can't make them fast and cloaky, or then BR's would not be used. So they must have other means of surviving the usual dangers. Resistance to warplocks be they points or bubbles seems reasonable. Unlike the BR, DST's take a long time to align and have a considerable window of vulnerability. They should also have enough tank to shrug off casual dmg applied during aligning. Just how big the cargo bay should be, and how much tank to allow them are the details that needs tweaking (after warp stabs and bubble invuln).
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#57 - 2014-03-26 20:35:32 UTC
Gothikia wrote:
The suggestions of adding in bubble immunity are very misguided. If you have a shred of skill you wouldn't be jumping into bubbles anyways, use a damn inty scout! The last thing we need is for EVE to be constantly dumbed down and yet again be put on easy mode.

The way they should be fixed is to get rid of the rep bonus, make it a resist bonus, boost the EHP slightly, maybe boost the cargo space a tiny bit and allow us to fit a decent tank on there.

Lets look at the Viator for example.

Quote:

Role Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator.
...


Yeah, sure it can, with just it's one high slot. They do need looked at, but any suggestion of bubble immunity is quite frankly just stupid. Even interceptors didn't really need it since you're going over 5 KM/s and quickly escaped from them. But y'know :easymode:


:bittervet:


I'm sorry but you're looking at the BR, the Occator is the DST (the one that comes with a +2 warb stab role bonus....)

EDIT: don't know why I thought you were posting about the DST, but that's the one most sensible people are discussing fitting bubble immunity to... at least most sensible people..... I think everyone agrees blockade runners are mostly fine.

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-03-26 21:00:48 UTC
Pashino wrote:
Logically, DST's should carry a lot more cargo and somehow be able to get around most of low/null space successfully most of the time.

There is no real advantage to having more cargo room if you're also more likely to get blown up. Even if it were bubble proof and had WCS in all its lows, it would only take one more point over that number to end the trip. If the ship were carrying a lot of stuff around, the probability that someone would try to catch it increases. If it isn't super fast align (and it would be hard to justify making it so), even bumping the ship could end the trip, because you don't actually need to point it. You just need it to stay in weapons range and on grid.

I still say drop the DST concept and go with two variations of the cloaked ships. DSTs don't really fill any role. I think they were conceived at a different time and stage of the game. Circumstances have rendered them useless.

Bokononist

 
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#59 - 2014-03-26 22:03:06 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting.


lol whut.

Cynoceptors are a thing and relic site hunting in ceptors is not.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#60 - 2014-03-27 16:55:53 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting.


lol whut.

Cynoceptors are a thing and relic site hunting in ceptors is not.



Pretty much THIS.

Not sure where some of these narratives come about. At cyno 5 with a crow you need a single cargo rig to drop a cyno.

That's it. done deal. The only thing that stops that from being broken is that you can't drop a black ops cyno like that.