Science & Industry

I know what you mean, BUT, there must be ISK available from the Buyers, when they do not have it, you can not sell it.....

Therefor i already mentioned, that CCp is better of with raising the TAX in 2, 3 or 4 periodes, so everyone can everyone is to prepare him/herself to the new prices.....

Like Erik, there will be much more who quit there alts, and even there mains....

Curcible.... The backdraft of a Smartbomb.... killing it's own gunner

Eh, I call bull-pockey on your numbers. Show your work.

Oct 19th fuel prices (millions of ISK per 30 days):

Amarr: 151 / 231 / 392
Caldari: 158 / 245 / 421
Gallente: 190 / 310 / 549
Minmatar: 174 / 276 / 482

Nov 7th prices:

Amarr: 136 / 213 / 366
Caldari: 140 / 220 / 381
Gallente: 176 / 291 / 523
Minmatar: 139 / 217 / 375

Estimated costs after the new fuel pellets arrive, using the following target prices:

11300 - Coolant
12400 - Enriched Uranium
12200 - Mechanical Parts
400 - Oxygen
90000 - Robotics
2750 - Charters
130 - Heavy Water
500 - Isotope price
420 - Liquid Ozone

Which gives prices of: 105 / 207 / 412 (S/M/L per 30 days)

If isotope prices go back up to 600 ISK/u, then: 112 / 221 / 441

Real Wormhole Numbers

I sat down and plugged the numbers in.

My P1 to P3 factory planet in W-Space

Old Taxes

Import Tax - 25k units of 4 different P1 products - 9,500 isk each
Export Tax - 930ish units of P3 - 560,000 isk

Total Tax per unit produced - about 650 isk

Value of Product - 45,000 average = about 1.4% tax on final product



New Taxes

Import Tax - 25k units of 4 different P1 products - 1,062,500 isk each
Export Tax - 930ish units of P3 - 11M isk

Total Tax per unit produced - About 16k isk

Value of product to compensate for increased tax = 60k = about 26% tax on final product


So yes the tax burden just soared almost 150x, but the overall cost increase is about 33% to the final goods to cover the new tax. And that is Wormhole tax of 17%. Use HS numbers and it is lower.



For my harvest planets exporting P1's

Old Tax on exporting a full launchpad was around 20k isk at .75 isk per unit

New Tax on exporting a full launchpad is around 2M isk at 85 isk per unit.

Average value of the higher end P1's was about 525 to 550

Adding the 84 extra isk of tax and it goes to 610 to 640 range.



So taking the two combined factors and combine them.

Increased cost of 100k units of P1 as input = 8.4M isk
Increased Tax for import and export = 16M isk

Amount I need P3 prices to rise to cover increase tax = 26K per unit

So I need P3 goods to rise from an average of 50-60k to 75-90k per unit to cover new WH tax. For HS that number is about 40% lower.


Now looking at the cost of the POCO's at 100M and I am able to justify a POCO on my factory planets in under 20 days.

And with an average of 4 extraction setups per planet, my extractor planets will need 30 days.


Those are my numbers.

*happily hugs her 0.1 PI system*

Ok, I believe CCP has messed up. They adjusted taxes to a flat rate of market value (at an inflated time, no less). But they didn't take into account the import/export process.

The extractor planet I was focusing in won't really be affected. Their taxes can be easily passed on to the market price, profit untouched.

But, as you go up the chain to P3 and P4, the accumulated taxes from previous layers start to outweight the taxes you pay in that planet.

Even with a single export step before reaching the factory planet, the accumulated export tax for a P4 item is roughly 150k isk, and for a P3 item it's 8k isk. At the factory planet, you have another roughly 200k (P4) or 11k (P3) of combined import/export tax.

The best solution for this would be to reduce the base values progressively as you go up the tiers.

PI taxes in high sec change according to the price of the good in that region. So if you pass the cost to the customer then the taxes go up to match the increase. Basically CCP is forcing everyone into low/null/W-space where pocos can be blown up left and right, you waste time and ISK defending the pocos, and the sandbox becomes more linear.

All the other changes in Crucible were just a cover for them break PI.

First stop mixing tier and P levels.

Second, it has almost never been profitable to take P0 level products and export them. Most people make the P1 level product on the extraction planets. So the tax increase on P0 level is near meaningless.

Yes prices are going to have to go up and the poor high sec people will not be able to recoup it. Boo hoo.

The risk we will take with poco in w-space will be rewarded with allowing us to count as profit what you will have to try to pass on.

tl;dr: prices should and will go up, but they shouldn't double again. If they do, its pure speculation and douchebaggery (welcome to EVE...), primarily by P1 harvesters who think that a 50isk per unit 'cost' increase means that they can increase their prices by 2 or 3 or 4 times that tax amount.

I'm really, really amused here :)

First - okay, my original replies were regarding a factory planet. That's fine, and the numbers still basically work. I'm also one of those weirdos that has always done P1->P2 then export, rather than doing harvest planets and factory planets.

So here's the old taxes per unit for export:
P0: 0.1
P1: 0.76
P2: 9.0
P3: 600.0
P4: 50000.

These were 5% taxes, so going back to algebra to figure out the original base value/assessed value, we get the following:
P0: 2
P1: 15.2
P2: 180
P3: 12000
P4: 1000000

The new base prices have been posted several times, but here they are again for reference:
P0: 5
P1: 500
P2: 9000
P3: 70000
P4: 1350000

The TAX RATE has been doubled from 5% to 10% in high sec, and increased to 17% (or whatever) in WH space [sucks to be you guys, jeez...]. So for those of you saying that the taxes should have been doubled...they were, if you look at the rate rather than the amount of isk drained off. So, really, it isn't the -rate- that you all are really upset about, it's the re-assessment of the value. Had only the RATE changed, you're still basically paying nothing in taxes for everything except P4. Which is stupid.

So what is really biting everyone in the collective rears - on top of the RATE doubling, the ASSESSED VALUE also increased, and with the exception of P4, by quite a bit:
P0: 150%
P1: 3189%
P2: 4900%
P3: 483%
P4: 35%

So... if you double the rate on top of HUGE assessment increases, you're going to pay a lot more in taxes, but we shouldn't see prices on anything double, including P1 (although they will, and should, go up). Since a LOT of the null-sec constructed fuel will be consumed locally, and they're going to want to maximize their export income if some do jump it out to high sec for sale, they will only undercut to sell faster, but will still look for better margins than they may be getting back home. This also means that the taxation is actually in balance with the market to a much better degree than it had been prior to this change.


Using Robotics as an example, with the following assumptions:
Importing P1 to turn into P2 and then P3 with no additional importing of materials:
You will have 4 P2 factories for each Robotics factory producing 72 Robotics per day. You will need 80 units of P1 per hour for each of those P2 factories, and you're importing the P1. Assume ~300 isk per unit imported for a total raw import cost of 80 * 300 24000 per factory per hour for P2.

Pre Increase:
Single factory taxes, import: ((15.2 * 80) * .05)/2 = 30.4isk
Times 4, that's 121.6isk per hour in import taxes. Pocket lint.
Export of the resultant 3 Robotics: ((12000 * 3) * .05) = 1800isk for -3-
Your material costs were 24k * 4 = 96k

Total isk lost to taxes for 3 Robotics: 1921.6 isk. Per HOUR, or 640.53isk each.
These were selling for ~30k 2-3 months ago, or so, and pushing 50k isk per unit just before this change (now 70k+), they were pretty much pure profit (total loss of 1.28% tax selling @50k per unit). You're making, @50k per Robotics, ~49.4k post tax revenue, and a net profit of 17.4k per unit. Per day that comes out to 1,252,800 profit on gross revenue of 3,600,000 per 'chain'.

WIth the new taxes and values:
((500 * 80) *.10)/2 = 2000
Export taxes on the 3 Robotics: ((70000 * 3) * .10 ) = 21,000

But what about the costs of the 320 P1 that were consumed to make the 3 P3? Your export 'costs' to bake in are 4000 isk per factory hour of P2 - so your costs are now 28,000 for an hour of P2, rather than 24,000. How? 500 * 80 * .1 = 4000 isk. That export cost will takle your 80 units that you paid 300 for before Crucible to 350isk each. Nowhere NEAR the 'double' that some folks seem to think will be happening here. Let's say for sake of argument someone decides that they want to increase their profit, too, so we see P1 @400 isk. That means our costs per factory hour are now 32,000, and the total cost to produce 3 Robotics, including all taxes, is now 151,000. If we assume that we want to keep our 17.4k per unit profit, then Robotics pricing only needs to go up to 68k per unit. Not even 70k base price, but only 67k.

If we assume 500isk per P1 unit, we jump to 78.4k per Robotics to make the same profit amount (which makes ~80k the most sensible 'floor').

And finally, if we assume a double from 300 to 600 (which is totally unnecessary, since, again, the taxes per unit P1 are only 50isk and can be recovered by increasing the cost by just that amount), Robotics would then cost ~90k.

Conclusion:
Prices will go up. Some people are going to be tools and try to push P1 costs up far, far more than they need to. PI product costs will probably go up just enough to cover MOST of the difference the taxes add into the process, meaning lower profits for most High Sec PI (except P1) .

edit: slight oops on one of the calcs changes nothing.

I expect you've already been told this, but mate you are completely wrong in your figures.

P1 tax value increased by ~32
P2 tax value increased by ~50
P3 tax value increased by ~5.8

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AploM5dd7fuEdGNvSXRsUFlYekExMHdCbjRqczZOcEE&authkey=CK78g4kO&hl=en_GB&pli=1#gid=49

In my spreadsheet linked above you can see that most goods do sell at or above the new tariff values. Stop trying to sell the ones which are priced terribly. Serious, if the goods which you are selling are worth much less than the equivalent '100% tariff" then you are in the wrong market mate. I'd go so far as to say you'd make more isk selling the P1 items than the P2 items and are in fact losing isk each time you combine them into a P2 item.