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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Mining lasers, Stip Miners, and Ice harvester grouping

Author
Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#1 - 2014-03-26 16:26:09 UTC
You should allow for grouped mining lasers, stip miners, and ice harvesters. Instead of multiplying their harvesting amount to rip 2 or 3x the ore they should reduce their activation time. So 3 strip miners grouped mine the same amount as 1 strip miner, but in 1/3rd the time. and 2 works in half the time of 1. Same harvest amount, but you cycle faster.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2 - 2014-03-26 16:33:32 UTC
Severice wrote:
You should allow for grouped mining lasers, stip miners, and ice harvesters. Instead of multiplying their harvesting amount to rip 2 or 3x the ore they should reduce their activation time. So 3 strip miners grouped mine the same amount as 1 strip miner, but in 1/3rd the time. and 2 works in half the time of 1. Same harvest amount, but you cycle faster.


Interesting idea, but I don't particularly like the impacts this has.

For ice mining, which has long cycles with no recovery when you stop harvesting mid cycle, this would greatly improve the efficiency, especially when competing with others.
Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#3 - 2014-03-26 16:43:18 UTC
What impacts don't you like? Weapon grouping has always been completely "optional".
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2014-03-26 16:53:32 UTC
Severice wrote:
What impacts don't you like? Weapon grouping has always been completely "optional".


Grouping weapons doesn't change the underlying functionality of the weapon. Perhaps it increases alpha, but in general the R.O.F. is the same, the overall D.O.T. is the same, and the grouped weapons retain almost every aspect of an ungrouped weapon.

Your suggestion fundamentally changes the nature of Ice mining by turning 3 minute cycles into much shorter cycles. When you are racing against another miner to complete your harvest cycle for the last batch of ice, this is a huge change. When you are most of the way through a cycle and a hostile comes into local, there is a significant reduction in time as you wait for the cycle to finish prior to warping. The cap pressure you might experience when attempting to put all miners on a single roid to drain it before another miner does completely changes with your suggestion. The value of a skiff vs a Mack or Hulk also changes, as a repercussion.

In other words, your suggestion changes a fundamental attribute of miners when they are grouped: Their cycle time. I'm don't think that is something that should be changed by "grouping' or "ungrouping" your weapons.

P.S. I'm from the day before weapon grouping, with players spamming F1-F8, and players that utilized programmable keyboards to do this at the touch of a button).
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2014-03-26 17:07:16 UTC
also dnt like the implications that u waste less if ur not paying attention.

if grouped lasers doubled or tripled the yield, it would be more efficient for active miners.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#6 - 2014-03-26 17:52:30 UTC
I am also form the day before weapon grouping, it was an interesting change at the time. I remember getting to f8 and my f1 guns were getting ready to shoot again. This rapidly improved my alpha and Time on Target DPS

My idea doesn't change DOT but it does change alpha and ROF, which is worth thinking about.

As for the value of Skiff / Mack / Hulk, that is almost a whole different discussion. However this change would bring them all much closer in line in terms of mining amount/cycle time. So you could have a hulk with the cycle time of a skiff. (Technically all of 20% faster) but that is the same advantage it gets for being a hulk and not a skiff.

It also makes sense to me that if you point two mining lasers at the same asteroid you should have an option that basically says "Hey, you two. Work together." and the logical result of telling them to work together is you achieve the same results faster.

As to Daichi Yamato, You only waste less if you're pointing all three lasers at the same roid. I don't know about you, but when i'm mining in a hulk, i try to point each strip miner at a different roid. So no, there isn't actually any additional waste.

Also I don't see you being more efficient for active miners, because the amount mined is the same. Youre M3/minute is identical.

Finally, You can't have it both ways. Your problem is that it helps people that aren't paying attention. Also, it helps people that are paying attention."It's too good if you're not paying attention. It's also too good if you're paying attention." Wat?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2014-03-26 18:18:20 UTC
nah, look again.

its better for ppl not paying attention as they take smaller more frequent bites out of rocks. so u dnt spend a full 3 minutes mining a rock worth half a bite.

its worse for generally everyone because smaller more frequent bites means less mining efficiency. thus active miners have nothing to gain from this, only a loss.

however, if u improve the alpha, active miners have much to gain. afk miners have more to lose. this is better than ur idea.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#8 - 2014-03-26 18:29:20 UTC
-1 Grouping is fine, but I don't understand why you want to change the grouping mechanic other than to potentially screw your fellow player.
Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#9 - 2014-03-26 18:34:05 UTC
Improving the alpha does nothing. You can literally ALREADY DO THAT! Just point all your lasers at the same rock and fire at once. Job done.

As for being more efficient, only if you're a new player and/or stupid, and anything that makes the game easier for newer players without effective high end game play is good.

Lets do some math, just so we can be precise.

We start with 6 asteroids and 2 ships.

One in using 3 individual mining lasers. The other is using 3 grouped mining lasers.

All asteroids are 1600m3 in size.
By the end of the third "cycle" (of the super laser) all ships are even.
By the end of the sixth, the 3 lasers have pulled ahead
By the end of the 9th they have pulled even farther ahead.
By the end of the 12th, they are all even again.

All six asteroids are fully mined, and both ships have an exactly even amount of ore.

If you are actively mining, the faster ROF gives you an advantage. Not the higher alpha. this is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you said. You sir. are wrong.


Laser 1 Laser 2 Laser 3 Super Laser
1600m3 1600m3 1600m3 1600m3
Cycle 1 0 0 0 -500
Cycle 2 0 0 0 -500
Cycle 3 -500 -500 -500 -500
Cycle 4 0 0 0 -100 (400 waste)
Cycle 5 0 0 0 -500 New asteroid
Cycle 6 -500 -500 -500 -500
Cycle 7 0 0 0 -500
Cycle 8 0 0 0 -100 (400 waste)
Cycle 9 -500 -500 -500 -500 New asteroid
Cycle 10 0 0 0 -500
Cycle 11 0 0 0 -500
Cycle 12 -100 -100 -100 -100 (400 waste)
(400 waste) (400 waste) (400 waste)

Total waste 1200 1200


I'm willing to bet this doesn't display properly
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2014-03-26 19:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
u need to learn how lasers do not pull exact m3 amounts because of separations in the sizes of ore and how i can cut off my lasers at the exact right amount if im attentive

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2014-03-26 19:58:51 UTC
Grouping strips: yes +1

Making grouping a mechanic to increase anything other than player sanity: no

Grouping is only a QoL addition to Eve. It is not meant to be for any kind of bonuses.
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-03-26 20:09:14 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Severice wrote:
You should allow for grouped mining lasers, stip miners, and ice harvesters. Instead of multiplying their harvesting amount to rip 2 or 3x the ore they should reduce their activation time. So 3 strip miners grouped mine the same amount as 1 strip miner, but in 1/3rd the time. and 2 works in half the time of 1. Same harvest amount, but you cycle faster.


Interesting idea, but I don't particularly like the impacts this has.

For ice mining, which has long cycles with no recovery when you stop harvesting mid cycle, this would greatly improve the efficiency, especially when competing with others.


Ice used to have long cycles, now its much more tolerable (my ice miner under full rourq bonuses had a spin time of 45s)
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2014-03-26 20:11:19 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Severice wrote:
You should allow for grouped mining lasers, stip miners, and ice harvesters. Instead of multiplying their harvesting amount to rip 2 or 3x the ore they should reduce their activation time. So 3 strip miners grouped mine the same amount as 1 strip miner, but in 1/3rd the time. and 2 works in half the time of 1. Same harvest amount, but you cycle faster.


Interesting idea, but I don't particularly like the impacts this has.

For ice mining, which has long cycles with no recovery when you stop harvesting mid cycle, this would greatly improve the efficiency, especially when competing with others.


Ice used to have long cycles, now its much more tolerable (my ice miner under full rourq bonuses had a spin time of 45s)

I hope that was your old time because now its like 25