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POS Refining to become better than Hi-Sec Station refining?

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Freight Dee Kat
Sapphire Dragon Industries
#1 - 2014-03-26 16:22:50 UTC
Hi everyone. I hope someone can clear up some confusion I am having in regards to the new devblog outlining all the upcoming changes to reprocessing and refining. I don't really have a problem with the actual processes, but I am having trouble understanding the POS changes.

Someone had posted the following new information in another thread:

Maximum Hi-Sec Station refining rate: 72.8% (after max skills applied)
Maximum Low-Sec Station refining rate: 75.0% (after max skills applied)
Maximum POS refining rate (intensive array?): 78.0% (after max skills applied)

(numbers might be slightly off by a tenths here and there)

Now....this is confusing me because what's on live right now, are the worthless POS refining arrays that are stuck at 35% and 75%, REGARDLESS OF SKILLS....Therefore, I don't know of a single POS owner that actually USED these things. All ore was hauled OUT of POS storage and back into Hi-sec or Low-sec to refine at a much higher rate. Like, 100% rate with good standings and such. (which, if I understand correctly, will change to 72.8% with max skills but with the same output due to change in batch sizes)

With this major change, I can see people doing the EXACT OPPOSITE. That is, hauling ore from hi-sec & low-sec to POS's, to get the better refining rate.

Is this how it's going to be or did I entirely misinterpret the devblog?

Not happy about the Rorqual changes either. A giant paperweight at the POS now...but that's a subject for another thread.

Thanks in advance for any clarification here,
Meow.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2014-03-26 16:25:44 UTC
No, you're pretty much right.
Free and universally available NPC station refining facilities are set to be the worst option. Like they should be.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#3 - 2014-03-26 16:34:05 UTC
One wonders if this will increase high sec POS warfare.

Also: It sure would be nice if CCP could make it so I could make the refining array on my POS available to the general public, for a fee. And I DO NOT mean by having me sit there and manually do it for people who show up, I mean more like a POCO. Once set up it's all handled automatically by game mechanics.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2014-03-26 16:35:48 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders if this will increase high sec POS warfare.

Also: It sure would be nice if CCP could make it so I could make the refining array on my POS available to the general public, for a fee. And I DO NOT mean by having me sit there and manually do it for people who show up, I mean more like a POCO. Once set up it's all handled automatically by game mechanics.

Yeah, actually being able to rent out any of your POS services should be high up the list of the POS revamp when (if) it ever happens. Cry
Nerodon
x Shinsengumi X
#5 - 2014-03-26 16:45:59 UTC
One would have to mine enough to justify using a POS instead but generally yes.

Calculate the amount of % increase you get from a POS, now, if the value of minerals made extra exceeds the cost of the fuel to keep the tower up then its profitable. Of course, that's assuming the time/effort to fuel the POS plus initial investment in ISK and Standings are worth that increase in profit. This is much more an advantage to people who already own POSes in Highsec for research/manufacturing.

That bonus increases as you go to low/Null with intensive arrays and even moreso with sov outposts after upgrading them. The riskier environments (Getting your POS killed without a war dec/Station Captured) justify that increase in output.

I do think this may help increase lowsec mining and general traffic, although maybe not by that much but every little bit helps.
Freight Dee Kat
Sapphire Dragon Industries
#6 - 2014-03-26 16:49:13 UTC
Nerodon wrote:

Calculate the amount of % increase you get from a POS, now, if the value of minerals made extra exceeds the cost of the fuel to keep the tower up then its profitable. Of course, that's assuming the time/effort to fuel the POS plus initial investment in ISK and Standings are worth that increase in profit. This is much more an advantage to people who already own POSes in Highsec for research/manufacturing.


Well, you're assuming people have a POS up just to mine. I'm talking about people with POS's for multiple purposes that will have a much easier time logistically in building things in low, null, or WH space.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#7 - 2014-03-26 16:50:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, you're pretty much right.
Free and universally available NPC station refining facilities are set to be the worst option. Like they should be.


This.

Also, I'm not familiar with pos refining arrays since they have been crap forever. Is there a maximum rate at which they can convert ore? is batch size limited? will pos refining capacity have a limit? Will we see large towers completely stuffed with refining arrays?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#8 - 2014-03-26 16:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Batelle wrote:
This.

Also, I'm not familiar with pos refining arrays since they have been crap forever. Is there a maximum rate at which they can convert ore? is batch size limited? will pos refining capacity have a limit? Will we see large towers completely stuffed with refining arrays?

Just looking at the stats, it looks like the only limiting factors is how much you can stuff into them at any time (and of course, you need to have space for the finished product) and that there is a 10s delay between each use. So unless you have a very long queue of people coming in and no other storage that you transfer to, one should be enough.
Freight Dee Kat
Sapphire Dragon Industries
#9 - 2014-03-26 16:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Freight Dee Kat
Batelle wrote:

Also, I'm not familiar with pos refining arrays since they have been crap forever. Is there a maximum rate at which they can convert ore? is batch size limited? will pos refining capacity have a limit? Will we see large towers completely stuffed with refining arrays?


I don't think those details have been revealed yet.

I was halfway done building a Rorqual but those plans have been put on hold now. -sigh- Sad
Nerodon
x Shinsengumi X
#10 - 2014-03-26 17:08:00 UTC
Freight Dee Kat wrote:
Nerodon wrote:

Calculate the amount of % increase you get from a POS, now, if the value of minerals made extra exceeds the cost of the fuel to keep the tower up then its profitable. Of course, that's assuming the time/effort to fuel the POS plus initial investment in ISK and Standings are worth that increase in profit. This is much more an advantage to people who already own POSes in Highsec for research/manufacturing.


Well, you're assuming people have a POS up just to mine. I'm talking about people with POS's for multiple purposes that will have a much easier time logistically in building things in low, null, or WH space.



As I said, that benefits these people even more. Since they already justify owning a POS for different reasons, refining minerals now becomes another role their POS can have.

But now, the idea that people will ship out ore all the way to low/null, melt it down and bring back to highsec is an interesting thing to think about. If the POS makes enough extra isk from refining to counter the time to haul ore, jump fuel, risk of losing the hauler etc then I think it's a cool new way to make refining into a real profession. Anything that actively encourages people to move around and build things in space is good.

Think about it, one can buy ore, use a highsec pos to compress it, then carry large loads of compressed ore to low/null POS or even 0.0 fully upgraded outpost, refine with max skills + implant then finally ship down minerals to highsec and sell.

If there is profit to be made, people will do it, and that would validate refining as a real profession that goes hand in hand with logistics... Every time I ship stuff to X station in a Jump Freighter, fill the buffer with compressed ore, refine, make profit by bringing back the refined minerals on the return trip.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-03-26 17:17:49 UTC
Thign im worried about is if highsec stations still refine into the same amount of minerals as now, that means low/null/POS ststaions will be producing MORE minerals than 100% refine in highsec does now, meaning well be seeing MORE minerals entering the market. (or was the refine not taking into account NPC withdrawals which i hope will also be getting a redo to make 0% taken harder to achieve)


i just dont want to see the mineral market dip any lower, not that i mine, its just that its depressing.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#12 - 2014-03-26 17:19:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders if this will increase high sec POS warfare.

Also: It sure would be nice if CCP could make it so I could make the refining array on my POS available to the general public, for a fee. And I DO NOT mean by having me sit there and manually do it for people who show up, I mean more like a POCO. Once set up it's all handled automatically by game mechanics.

Yeah, actually being able to rent out any of your POS services should be high up the list of the POS revamp when (if) it ever happens. Cry


And preferably so that you could set ff access by person rather then corp/aliance so your pos won't be turned to an impromptu safe harbor for corps in war / fw. Blink
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2014-03-26 17:23:31 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Thign im worried about is if highsec stations still refine into the same amount of minerals as now, that means low/null/POS ststaions will be producing MORE minerals than 100% refine in highsec does now, meaning well be seeing MORE minerals entering the market. (or was the refine not taking into account NPC withdrawals which i hope will also be getting a redo to make 0% taken harder to achieve)


i just dont want to see the mineral market dip any lower, not that i mine, its just that its depressing.


Don't forget that minerals from reprocessed modules and ships will be greatly reduced

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Nerodon
x Shinsengumi X
#14 - 2014-03-26 19:11:05 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Thign im worried about is if highsec stations still refine into the same amount of minerals as now, that means low/null/POS ststaions will be producing MORE minerals than 100% refine in highsec does now, meaning well be seeing MORE minerals entering the market. (or was the refine not taking into account NPC withdrawals which i hope will also be getting a redo to make 0% taken harder to achieve)


i just dont want to see the mineral market dip any lower, not that i mine, its just that its depressing.


Don't forget that not every person, child and their dogs will have max skills plus a 4% implant. If anything, mineral supply will probably become lower as most solo miners who don't care for maximum efficiency will refine at greater loss saying "Meh"

Also, the added risk in moving the minerals and the need for POS and outpost upgrades will generate more demand for lots of different stuff too.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#15 - 2014-03-26 21:01:16 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Thign im worried about is if highsec stations still refine into the same amount of minerals as now, that means low/null/POS ststaions will be producing MORE minerals than 100% refine in highsec does now, meaning well be seeing MORE minerals entering the market. (or was the refine not taking into account NPC withdrawals which i hope will also be getting a redo to make 0% taken harder to achieve)


i just dont want to see the mineral market dip any lower, not that i mine, its just that its depressing.

But we will be getting less minerals for reprocessing junk loot. I'm not worried.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#16 - 2014-03-26 21:09:54 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
One wonders if this will increase high sec POS warfare.

Also: It sure would be nice if CCP could make it so I could make the refining array on my POS available to the general public, for a fee. And I DO NOT mean by having me sit there and manually do it for people who show up, I mean more like a POCO. Once set up it's all handled automatically by game mechanics.

Yeah, actually being able to rent out any of your POS services should be high up the list of the POS revamp when (if) it ever happens. Cry


And preferably so that you could set ff access by person rather then corp/alliance so your pos won't be turned to an impromptu safe harbor for corps in war / fw. Blink

CCP could make it so if you set the refinery to "rent to public" all someone would have to do is get within 2500 m of the force field. They select the pos array they want to use and activate it. If something would not fit, the array fails to activate (for example, if you tried to do it with a mining barge. It has a huge ore hold and a tiny cargo hold, so the minerals would not fit). They get an "accept payment" dialog. Then the ore disappears from their ship and are replaced by minerals. If you tried it with a freighter you would have to do it multiple times due to the volume constraint of the refinery.

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Doppleganger
Federated Holdings
#17 - 2014-03-26 21:23:18 UTC
The POS refinery array had a use when POS first came out but have been almost worthless for yrs. When POS 1st came out I mined out in deep 0.0 where there were no stations and this was before outposts came along as well.

I'm happy to think that POS refining arrays will have a purpose again.

I think it would be nice to have a POS reproccesing array that does better than high sec stations but be around like 75% with maxed skills and maybe an implant.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#18 - 2014-03-26 22:42:51 UTC
As there is already a thread on the same topic, this one gets a lock.

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