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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#621 - 2014-03-26 01:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Mario Putzo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Secondly, how does the total market movement of Arkonor vs Hedbergite factor into anything? I'm beginning to think you don't even know how the markets work. Seriously, go get a 2nd opinion if you want, but the way you are calculating your figures is absolutely wrong.


Movement is everything!

ISK/HR doesn't stop when you fill your cargo hold. If you drop something on market without factoring in the movement your stuff could sit there for hours on end. Meanwhile someone like me can be mining something completely different cleaning up because of the difference in volume.

This is why

1) Veldspar is the best benchmark comparison It always moves at a stable price
2) Averaging regional ores movement/price is important

Just mining the same thing all day everyday will not net you strong market profitability, outside of Veldspar. Its why things like Arkonor can sell 57% less units yet make 189% more isk. Its why on average nullsec ores will give you


Ark is 16m/3 a unit, and veld is 0.1m3 a unit, miners pull ore down regardless of type in the same m3. There is no maths trick there, a jetcan full of ark is worth barely more than a jetcan full of veld and they take the same time to extract.

afaik there are 2 systems falling into the "H6" category for belt mercoxit in the whole 60 system PBLRD area in Vale.

ie I would need to hold sufficient indy index to spawn the larger ihub mining anoms to get mercoxit, and those need to be fully mined out to respawn (and to get/keep the index), which means mining the basket most of the time. Mercoxit can't be snipe mined ignoring everything else for most of null.

Also the value of all ores, is currently less than the price offered to me for jump freighter haulage, even mercoxit needs to be compressed for it to be worth hauling and unlike most of nullsec, I'm actually quite close to jita - ~23 jumps.

I can get pyrox close to hubs in highsec, where haulage is trivial.

Quote:


Market Volume, Market Movement and Isk/m3 must all be taken into consideration. ISK/HR is a benchmark, not a guarantee.

I promise you, if you spend a day mining Null Ore you will make more ISK than spending a day mining HS Ore. It is simple simple math.



no actually I wouldn't. I have to move it to a station, compress it (which currently means I need fairly representive baskets), and ship it to jita to sell - which right now is painful due to lack of matar outposts near me. As we discussed last time, the net pricing for a jumpfreighter to me is 300isk/m3, to ship raw ark to jita would actually cost me about 30% more than I could sell it for, and lol at sticking it on a nullsec market.

2014.03.20 00:00:00 0 0 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK
2014.03.21 00:00:00 0 0 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK
2014.03.22 00:00:00 0 0 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK 1.04 ISK
2014.03.23 00:00:00 1 12 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK
2014.03.24 00:00:00 0 0 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK
2014.03.25 00:00:00 0 0 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK
2014.03.26 01:48:07 0 0 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK 1.05 ISK

look at that awesome movement of ark in carebear dominated Vale. its flying out the door Roll

and is the megacyte (refined product) better you ask,

2014.03.18 00:00:00 1 6,539 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.19 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.20 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.21 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.22 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.23 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.24 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.25 00:00:00 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK
2014.03.26 01:54:29 0 0 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK 957.00 ISK

nope.

Quote:


EDIT: This is assuming you are not doing something ******** like just filling buy orders of course.


No - go see ore.cerlestes.de which lets you do the ore to mineral transformations and price transformations, set it to jetcan sized amounts of ore, and you will see the relationship in ore prices very clearly. ark is worth a bit 6.1m a jetcan, pyrox is worth 5.3m a jetcan right now.
Mario Putzo
#622 - 2014-03-26 02:23:53 UTC
Now hear this Now hear this.

The Vale of the Silent, Is now a central market hub and the foremost benchmark for pricing on EVE.

Cassandra Banes
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#623 - 2014-03-26 02:26:32 UTC
Customarily when there's a change in the game I either use it to my advantage if I can, or do something else...

Makes patching a lot less frustrating...

And yes I run level IV missions quite often, and yes I do salvage from those missions. I'll take a hit from this too, but you know what?

I'm not gonna get emotional about it.

Eve is a game, if you're taking it so seriously that you're going to have a hardcore rant about a nominal loss in minerals from processing waste loot.... Then perhaps the issue isn't the change made in the game, it's your reliance on a rule within a game that is flexible, dynamic and prone to change.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not trying to be flippant, I just think that the focus need to change from "I can't believe they did this" to "ok this has been done, how do I benefit/deal with it".

I intend to have fun either way.
Mario Putzo
#624 - 2014-03-26 02:33:10 UTC
Cassandra Banes wrote:
Customarily when there's a change in the game I either use it to my advantage if I can, or do something else...

Makes patching a lot less frustrating...

And yes I run level IV missions quite often, and yes I do salvage from those missions. I'll take a hit from this too, but you know what?

I'm not gonna get emotional about it.

Eve is a game, if you're taking it so seriously that you're going to have a hardcore rant about a nominal loss in minerals from processing waste loot.... Then perhaps the issue isn't the change made in the game, it's your reliance on a rule within a game that is flexible, dynamic and prone to change.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not trying to be flippant, I just think that the focus need to change from "I can't believe they did this" to "ok this has been done, how do I benefit/deal with it".

I intend to have fun either way.


It hasn't been done yet.

There is still time for CCP to see the folly in their intent. For a patch meant to help increase productivity it is actually going to detract from it. I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals. The 45% reduction to them is going to come directly off the market, and with refine changes, this is a net loss.

CCP is either banking on a lot of new miners, or CCP is banking on a lot of people abandoning production. Otherwise the economy is going to get its nuts kicked booted hard.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#625 - 2014-03-26 02:33:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Now hear this Now hear this.

The Vale of the Silent, Is now a central market hub and the foremost benchmark for pricing on EVE.



I gave you an example of a carebear region + I gave you ore.cerlestes.de which has the highsec hubs indexed via the underlying mineral prices (and you can't for the moment believe that under the current mineral oriented system the mineral prices aren't the dominant factor).

If you'd like to show me a cut and paste out of a nullsec region with a healthy trade in ark and mega, then by all means go find it and present it.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#626 - 2014-03-26 02:41:13 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
For a patch meant to help increase productivity it is actually going to detract from it. I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals. The 45% reduction to them is going to come directly off the market, and with refine changes, this is a net loss.

Have you ever considered that this is the reason for the change and is fully intended? I do believe that this was what happened when "drone poop" was removed and that CCP was rather satisfied with the results (even though prices for everything rose drastically).
Mario Putzo
#627 - 2014-03-26 03:10:47 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
For a patch meant to help increase productivity it is actually going to detract from it. I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals. The 45% reduction to them is going to come directly off the market, and with refine changes, this is a net loss.

Have you ever considered that this is the reason for the change and is fully intended? I do believe that this was what happened when "drone poop" was removed and that CCP was rather satisfied with the results (even though prices for everything rose drastically).


Could very well be the end goal, or it could be an oversight.

Would actually be cool to see the numbers on produced goods from scrap reprocessing, I know it is a big thing in LS and NPC Null, probably not so much in HS.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#628 - 2014-03-26 03:14:04 UTC
:WHMASTERACE:



You will all assimilate.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Cassandra Banes
Absolute Order
Absolute Honor
#629 - 2014-03-26 03:24:11 UTC
I can see that they're trying to put more cash in the hands of producers (construction / mining) than mission runners (who simply blow things up, loot (mabey) rinse and repeat).

I think it's more of a promotion of a concept than a slap in the face of mission runners, I think there's some people taking it a bit more personally than i believe they should.

I do agree that the reduction is probably more than is required (perhaps some more balancing is needed at CCP's end) but in saying that, the developers can speculate on a change and put forward their best projections, but until it hits the servers and they're given some time to see how it affects things they're not going to really know.

Neither are any of us really, all we can do is speculate.

I'm not for one way or the other, I'm just going to find it interesting seeing what does actually happen post deployment and see if I can make isk out of it.

I hope you all do to :)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#630 - 2014-03-26 03:41:43 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Cassandra Banes wrote:
Customarily when there's a change in the game I either use it to my advantage if I can, or do something else...

Makes patching a lot less frustrating...

And yes I run level IV missions quite often, and yes I do salvage from those missions. I'll take a hit from this too, but you know what?

I'm not gonna get emotional about it.

Eve is a game, if you're taking it so seriously that you're going to have a hardcore rant about a nominal loss in minerals from processing waste loot.... Then perhaps the issue isn't the change made in the game, it's your reliance on a rule within a game that is flexible, dynamic and prone to change.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not trying to be flippant, I just think that the focus need to change from "I can't believe they did this" to "ok this has been done, how do I benefit/deal with it".

I intend to have fun either way.


It hasn't been done yet.

There is still time for CCP to see the folly in their intent. For a patch meant to help increase productivity it is actually going to detract from it. I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals. The 45% reduction to them is going to come directly off the market, and with refine changes, this is a net loss.

CCP is either banking on a lot of new miners, or CCP is banking on a lot of people abandoning production. Otherwise the economy is going to get its nuts kicked booted hard.


The cartels pulled the numbers on minerals from looters, made their calculations, and have decided on how much high and low sec income they could divert to null sec without having the investors and accountants step in. And yes, this is a done deal. Read the cartels' statement. There is no equivocation, no room for movement.. They are turning the heat up on the frog big time with this release.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#631 - 2014-03-26 03:53:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Cassandra Banes wrote:
Customarily when there's a change in the game I either use it to my advantage if I can, or do something else...

Makes patching a lot less frustrating...

And yes I run level IV missions quite often, and yes I do salvage from those missions. I'll take a hit from this too, but you know what?

I'm not gonna get emotional about it.

Eve is a game, if you're taking it so seriously that you're going to have a hardcore rant about a nominal loss in minerals from processing waste loot.... Then perhaps the issue isn't the change made in the game, it's your reliance on a rule within a game that is flexible, dynamic and prone to change.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not trying to be flippant, I just think that the focus need to change from "I can't believe they did this" to "ok this has been done, how do I benefit/deal with it".

I intend to have fun either way.


It hasn't been done yet.

There is still time for CCP to see the folly in their intent. For a patch meant to help increase productivity it is actually going to detract from it. I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals. The 45% reduction to them is going to come directly off the market, and with refine changes, this is a net loss.

CCP is either banking on a lot of new miners, or CCP is banking on a lot of people abandoning production. Otherwise the economy is going to get its nuts kicked booted hard.


The cartels pulled the numbers on minerals from looters, made their calculations, and have decided on how much high and low sec income they could divert to null sec without having the investors and accountants step in. And yes, this is a done deal. Read the cartels' statement. There is no equivocation, no room for movement.. They are turning the heat up on the frog big time with this release.


If you like, you can apply to my corp and try nullsec, tax free, safe from gewns. I can assure you that with almost 1200 dps and perpetual battleship spawners, I can make more wrecks with a dominix than a highsec marauder can missioning, with a better ratio of large turret type loots and given that loot is pre-compressed, its a pretty tasty material.

ie you can come see what nullsec is losing in this very CCP oriented change if you like.
Abla Tive
#632 - 2014-03-26 04:06:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

When running level 4s you want to get as much LP as possible as that is where the isk is. We goons do a lot of research into whatever we do and this is the best way to go about missions. Idealy you want to finish missions by killing as few ships as possible in the quickest time you can manage. The only thing you loot are the mission items.

See, that is why I could never be a goon.

They think that there can *be* such a thing as the "best" way to do missions.

ISK / hour means very little to me.
I run missions for enjoyment (really!)

LP is meaningless.
I think I cash in my LP only when I need to upgrade my implants (or get a new jump clone).

Shooting, Looting, salvaging, reprocessing and building stuff from my reprocessed loot is what gives me enjoyment.
There is a lot of variety in all the various steps and I enjoy the different aspects of play. I also enjoy building everything that I use up from stuff that I mostly collected. If I run short of mexallon to build my next mission running BS, I am much more likely to break out the retriever and zap some kernite than I am to grab my fenrir and load up in Jita.

Perhaps I would have a larger number in my wallet at the end of the month if I did everything "optimally" but the size of my wallet does not reflect the size of my enjoyment.

By nerfing my reprocessing gains, CCP is driving me towards a very restricted type of "optimal" mission grinding where things like ISK / hour are important.

I suspect that this will make the game less enjoyable for me.

Finally, note that as a high sec carebear I have very few unavoidable expenses.
There is the bling I can put on my mission ship, but that is purely optional stuff.

When the high sec POCO's came out, I could not be arsed enough to determine if the alliance that owned the POCOs in my local space were deserving of my tax money, so I stopped doing PI. (And I was certainly not going to fund undeserving people, giving taxes to NPCs and giving taxes to PCs are completely different things in my books).

That made the game narrower for me.

Now, I am being boxed in my mission and industrial play style and I fear for my enjoyment.

Since I have no actual expenses, I can stop any activity at any time and try something else.

If my actual enjoyment *is* affected by this proposed change, I hope that I can find something else to entertain me.

Are incursions any fun?
Flaming Forum Spammer
Doomheim
#633 - 2014-03-26 04:24:03 UTC
well, I'll admit, I'm a missioner atm. I work full time, have family, go out and spend weekends productively. I don't do much in the way of group ops -most of my corp seems to be like me with only 10 hours or less a week for eve. I am more likely to buy a plex or two when the chips are down than go out mining, but not every missioner buys 2 plex a month.

Nerfing refining isn't going to seriously affect me. Do what's necessary to build up and reward people playing as groups -F* Multiboxers; Multiboxing is like Sibel's multiple personalities getting together for a rave... still just some lonely prick pretending at MP.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#634 - 2014-03-26 07:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Mario Putzo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Secondly, how does the total market movement of Arkonor vs Hedbergite factor into anything? I'm beginning to think you don't even know how the markets work. Seriously, go get a 2nd opinion if you want, but the way you are calculating your figures is absolutely wrong.


Movement is everything!

ISK/HR doesn't stop when you fill your cargo hold. If you drop something on market without factoring in the movement your stuff could sit there for hours on end. Meanwhile someone like me can be mining something completely different cleaning up because of the difference in volume.

This is why

1) Veldspar is the best benchmark comparison It always moves at a stable price
2) Averaging regional ores movement/price is important

Just mining the same thing all day everyday will not net you strong market profitability, outside of Veldspar. Its why things like Arkonor can sell 57% less units yet make 189% more isk. Its why on average nullsec ores will give you 192% more isk (145% time/isk) than HS ores.

Market Volume, Market Movement and Isk/m3 must all be taken into consideration. ISK/HR is a benchmark, not a guarantee.
You are incorrect. You method of measuring the market is incorrect. The volume of sales doesn't come into the value of the ore. All you are doing in your method is using a convoluted way of getting differences in average price PER UNIT, then you are comparing them like they mean a damn thing. Veldspar is not the benchmark for anything. It's what you are choosing because it suits you. The benchmark is the mineral price index.

Mario Putzo wrote:
I promise you, if you spend a day mining Null Ore you will make more ISK than spending a day mining HS Ore. It is simple simple math.

EDIT: This is assuming you are not doing something ******** like just filling buy orders of course.
Yes, you will, but you will not get 192% more isk. That is FLAWED MATH. I honestly can't believe that you can't see the clear errors you are putting into your calculations.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#635 - 2014-03-26 13:52:10 UTC
And yet you still don't see how imbalanced it is compared to highsec in certain areas.

So you're either willfully ignorant or just plain unobservant, neither of which speaks well of you.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Sarah McKnobbo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#636 - 2014-03-26 16:51:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals.


I highly doubt that, surely you don't honestly believe that? Knowing the amount of data that CCP have available, I would imagine they know exactly how much comes from reprocessing.
Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
ORPHANS OF EVE 2
#637 - 2014-03-26 17:26:32 UTC
Cassandra Banes wrote:
I can see that they're trying to put more cash in the hands of producers (construction / mining) than mission runners (who simply blow things up, loot (mabey) rinse and repeat).

I think it's more of a promotion of a concept than a slap in the face of mission runners, I think there's some people taking it a bit more personally than i believe they should.

I do agree that the reduction is probably more than is required (perhaps some more balancing is needed at CCP's end) but in saying that, the developers can speculate on a change and put forward their best projections, but until it hits the servers and they're given some time to see how it affects things they're not going to really know.

Neither are any of us really, all we can do is speculate.

I'm not for one way or the other, I'm just going to find it interesting seeing what does actually happen post deployment and see if I can make isk out of it.

I hope you all do to :)


I would rather get materials to build the ships I want from running missions than mining. Mission Runners that simply blow things up, we do more than just sit in front of rocks waiting for them to blow up. Your statement which basically says Mission Runners are not producers I am kind of offended by. I run missions for the loot which I reprocess all of it to make ammo, ships, and other things. Of course with the drones nerf, I used to be able to make bs and below. Now all that is feasible for me to make is frigates and rigs. Trys to put more cash in the hands of producers my eye. This kind of thing forces producers to be construction/miner. As opposed to mission runner/construction, saying that producers can only be contruction/miners. Is trying to force other people to play as you do. There are many ways to get the minerals to make things, with each iteration of EVE Online that statement becomes less and less true.

I like to think outside of the box, I like being able to build things without having to shoot at rocks at all. You play your way I play mine. But please do not assume that everyone that does a thing (in this case mission running/ratting) all does a thing for the same reasons.

Are you a miner/mission runner that is tired of being ganked? Do you want to play EVE and never PVP, but you have a list of players that is stopping you from doing that? Don't QQ pay someone to do your PEW PEW for you. Now offering reasonable rates. EVE mail me for more details.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#638 - 2014-03-26 17:40:12 UTC
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
I think CCP severely underestimates the volume of production done by scrap reprocessed minerals.


I highly doubt that, surely you don't honestly believe that? Knowing the amount of data that CCP have available, I would imagine they know exactly how much comes from reprocessing.


The null sec cartels knew precisely how damaging this was to mission runners while calculating how massive a devastation to implement.

I must also laugh at the propagandists who say, "just blitz for LP", which will just trash the LP market, further wrecking mission running. But that is all part of the plan, right?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#639 - 2014-03-26 17:47:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The null sec cartels
Who?

Quote:
knew precisely how damaging this was to mission runners while calculating how massive a devastation to implement.
What makes you there is any plan on or intention to damage mission runners?
And if there is, why would they use a process that affects completely different parts of the game far more than it does mission runners?

Quote:
But that is all part of the plan, right?
What plan?
Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
ORPHANS OF EVE 2
#640 - 2014-03-26 18:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Enkill Eridos
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The null sec cartels

Who?


The Alliances currently controlling null sec

Quote:
knew precisely how damaging this was to mission runners while calculating how massive a devastation to implement.

What makes you there is any plan on or intention to damage mission runners?
And if there is, why would they use a process that affects completely different parts of the game far more than it does mission runners?


This makes being self sustainable without getting into a mining ship that much harder. Which still affects those that run missions to be self sustainable, less so. My definition of self sustainable is being able to build what you want to fly and what you want to fit on that ship, without relying on the market. Which makes null sec easier to live in, the times I lived in null sec people made things but then sold those on the market in high sec, making most null sec markets a joke.

[quote]But that is all part of the plan, right?

What plan?


The plan on making high sec mission running the least profitable thing you can do. (According to the OP of the original quote.) Blitzing missions leads to more lp which would tank the lp market, which is already tanking because incursions gets you lp that you can transfer anywhere. The more mission runners blitz missions for lp, the less of a transfer rate for the LP cost of a item. If LP is very easy to get the faction items that are bought with lp can be sold cheaper. Which makes faction items a little more cheaper. Did you not pay attention to the ranting of the person you quoted at all? There are other ways to make isk that make more, but people like the person originally quoted does not want to do those things. Unless you were being sarcastic because you think such a thing is impossible.

The quoted OP's Conspiracy Theory is plausible. Let me tell you why.

1.) CCP Devs have non CCP alts they play with, many of these alts are in null sec alliances. This was admitted to over the years by CCP employees.

2.) Making ways to make ISK in high-sec would be strategically sound for the null sec alliances that want to keep the monopoly they have over null sec systems. I stopped playing eve in 2013 for personal reasons. Came back now looked at the sovergnty map and see that most of the really big alliances that were in null sec before, have gotten much bigger.

If there is any conspiracy involving null sec alliances trying to make high sec the least profitable place to live, thus getting more people to want to pick a side in their wars against each other. It would be to cripple how an alliance can make money in high sec and you cripple a new alliance to be able to rise up become just as big in numbers and take over. It protects their monopoly if it is economically unfeasible for an alliance that starts out in high sec to try and take a null sec system/constellation and be able to have the ships to hold it against what they can throw at it. Even if said constellation/system is "unclaimed". If there was a conspiracy involving the null sec alliances that would be the reason said conspiracy existed. The easiest way to do that is to start crippling one of the more lucrative ways to make money, or develop assets. The two ways to do that mission running and mining. You start nerfing the amount of minerals an alliance can reprocess or refine and you nerf the amount of ships they can make. Thus lessening the threats that could come from high sec.

As well as limiting the amount of money a null sec alliance with many members having high sec alts can make in high sec to help fund opposition of a particular monopoly system.

Also it would limit high sec players from being able to resist the big alliances if they ever decided to come to high sec enmasse and start ganking everybody. If you can't afford to keep buying ships and fight back, they will have no reason to stop.

Are you a miner/mission runner that is tired of being ganked? Do you want to play EVE and never PVP, but you have a list of players that is stopping you from doing that? Don't QQ pay someone to do your PEW PEW for you. Now offering reasonable rates. EVE mail me for more details.