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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1541 - 2014-03-25 18:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Quote:
Deadspace and Officer mods should require some pretty exotic parts (WH salvage, anyone?) to build.

This would finally put the last hold-out of useable items into the hands of industrialists, and cause all modules used to be dictated by the mineral index, instead of by the bot-farming index.


Why should it be WH stuff when it's clearly K-space modules? Is there someone trying to make WH even more profitable than they already are? Roll

The last sentence will never be able to pass the PVP-ridden CSM and PVP-bondaged CCP devs, never. Industrialists must be kept under the boots of PVPers, not given even more creeping power over them by giving them yet another way to drain money out of poor PVPers' wallets. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1542 - 2014-03-25 19:30:51 UTC
So basically it will never be worth it to reprocess anything? Why have reprocessing at all then?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1543 - 2014-03-25 20:37:20 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
So basically it will never be worth it to reprocess anything? Why have reprocessing at all then?


No your stuff is always worth something. It might be just a little bit more difficult to convert that value directly into minerals via reprocessing.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1544 - 2014-03-25 20:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
In high sec, at a pos, since it just magically assumes max refine, The best refiner ever will be a Trial user.
1. They are not paying for the game yet
2. They get max refine at a PoS since it magically assumes max refine, due to ccp's lack of ability to fix there PoS code.
3. They get to laugh REALLY HARD at the guy with 15 million skill points in reprocessing as there skill set is irreverent at a pos in high sec.
4. They are already in high sec anyway, and are playing for free! (The guy with 15 million sp in reprocessing can't, hes off trial!)
5. Profit just as much as someone who actually pays for the game for years to train all the reprocessing skills to max.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1545 - 2014-03-25 21:04:42 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
In high sec, at a pos, since it just magically assumes max refine, The best refiner ever will be a Trial user.
1. They are not paying for the game yet
2. They get max refine at a PoS since it magically assumes max refine, due to ccp's lack of ability to fix there PoS code.
3. They get to laugh REALLY HARD at the guy with 15 million skill points in reprocessing as there skill set is irreverent at a pos in high sec.
4. They are already in high sec anyway, and are playing for free! (The guy with 15 million sp in reprocessing can't, hes off trial!)
5. Profit just as much as someone who actually pays for the game for years to train all the reprocessing skills to max.

Anchoring cannot be trained on a trial account.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1546 - 2014-03-25 21:07:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
In high sec, at a pos, since it just magically assumes max refine, The best refiner ever will be a Trial user.
1. They are not paying for the game yet
2. They get max refine at a PoS since it magically assumes max refine, due to ccp's lack of ability to fix there PoS code.
3. They get to laugh REALLY HARD at the guy with 15 million skill points in reprocessing as there skill set is irreverent at a pos in high sec.
4. They are already in high sec anyway, and are playing for free! (The guy with 15 million sp in reprocessing can't, hes off trial!)
5. Profit just as much as someone who actually pays for the game for years to train all the reprocessing skills to max.

Anchoring cannot be trained on a trial account.

You can join a player corp though that has one.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1547 - 2014-03-25 21:27:40 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Querns wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
In high sec, at a pos, since it just magically assumes max refine, The best refiner ever will be a Trial user.
1. They are not paying for the game yet
2. They get max refine at a PoS since it magically assumes max refine, due to ccp's lack of ability to fix there PoS code.
3. They get to laugh REALLY HARD at the guy with 15 million skill points in reprocessing as there skill set is irreverent at a pos in high sec.
4. They are already in high sec anyway, and are playing for free! (The guy with 15 million sp in reprocessing can't, hes off trial!)
5. Profit just as much as someone who actually pays for the game for years to train all the reprocessing skills to max.

Anchoring cannot be trained on a trial account.

You can join a player corp though that has one.

They also can't train industrial ships or mining barges. So, I guess a trial character that wants to fumble his way into a player corporation with only 3 messages in chat every 21 seconds, then mine in a venture, he will enjoy a moderate boost in his income for the 21 days of his trial. He'll still be making less money than if he sold his ore to buy orders put up by people with the skills trained and access to better refineries.

The point is, this comparison is stupid.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1548 - 2014-03-25 22:21:06 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts.

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

wicked cheese
Doomheim
#1549 - 2014-03-25 22:22:34 UTC
great changes. all this needs imo is a buff to lowsec stations (which the blog said npc stations wont be changed this summer).

mineral compression has been out of balance for a long time. i remember escorting 3 freighters that had all the minerals to build the first titan.

in hindsight maybe its been that way since the beginning
Mpat120 M256
Latter Day Saints
Dark Taboo
#1550 - 2014-03-25 22:25:45 UTC
So are these caps changing or did I miss something. As I read it you are CAPPED at these figures in a POS, NOT base refines but capped as a max yeld with perfect skills, implants ect>

Name Max refining %
Intensive Refining Array 75%
Medium Intensive Refining Array 75%
Refining Array 35%
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1551 - 2014-03-25 22:33:54 UTC
Mpat120 M256 wrote:
So are these caps changing or did I miss something. As I read it you are CAPPED at these figures in a POS, NOT base refines but capped as a max yeld with perfect skills, implants ect>

Name Max refining %
Intensive Refining Array 75%
Medium Intensive Refining Array 75%
Refining Array 35%

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
But in all cases, Starbase Reprocessing Arrays are better than NPC stations. As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.

from here

NPEISDRIP

Mpat120 M256
Latter Day Saints
Dark Taboo
#1552 - 2014-03-25 22:59:26 UTC
Ok thats in a Starbase Reprocessing Array, in a station , Im asking about POS modules in particular in say J-space where there are no npc/sov indy stations,eggs ect. Or did he lump POS arrays into that statement?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1553 - 2014-03-25 23:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Mpat120 M256 wrote:
Or did he lump POS arrays into that statement?
correct. Refining Arrays and Intensive Refining Arrays are POS (Player owned Starbase) Modules.

NPEISDRIP

Mpat120 M256
Latter Day Saints
Dark Taboo
#1554 - 2014-03-25 23:15:39 UTC
OK, thanks for clearing that up.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1555 - 2014-03-25 23:21:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Albert Spear wrote:

Then there are the ones who will load up a Venture and go mining...but the reduction in yield means they have to sell ore and not minerals

And the problem with selling ore is...?

I would imagine the loss in income potential for those mining would be the biggest problem.

What income loss? The miner sells their ore for 10-20% more than they'd get refining it with max skills. If they want, they can turn around and buy minerals with that money and do production, if they so desire.

You can't be serious?
You don't see a problem with that statement, I am so glad you don't do my taxes.
Your basing your assumption on ore selling for 10 - 20% more than it does now?

So unless miners can sell ore for 20% more than they could get "now", they will be losing income.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1556 - 2014-03-26 01:13:26 UTC
So I'm wondering if the volume of Compressed Mercoxit and it's variants are going to remain at 1000m/3 per unit. That's really high. High as in you would have to be high to ever compress Mercoxit ore.

Current compression requires 500 units of Mercoxit. At 40m3 per unit of ore, that's 20,000m3 compressed to 1,000m3. At first glance you're thinking 20:1. But that's irrelevant. Its the mineral content that we care about.

Post change Mercoxit will have 293 units of Morphite per batch of 100 units of ore. At 40m3 per unit that is a choice between 4000m3 of ore, or 2.93m3 of mineral. The choice is clear.

Compressed Mercoxit will have 1463 units of Morphite per 1000m3 block. That's only 14.63m3 of mineral, in a 1000m3 block. Is it better than raw ore? Sure. But you're still better off just hauling the Morphite.

In order for there to be any benefit from compressing Mercoxit ores, Compressed Mercoxit would have to be no more than 10m3 per unit, and the higher yield variants would have to be no more than 11m3 per unit. I would recommend 1m3 per unit so as to attain a ratio of refined minerals to ore of slightly better than 10:1.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1557 - 2014-03-26 01:57:35 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Albert Spear wrote:

Then there are the ones who will load up a Venture and go mining...but the reduction in yield means they have to sell ore and not minerals

And the problem with selling ore is...?

I would imagine the loss in income potential for those mining would be the biggest problem.

What income loss? The miner sells their ore for 10-20% more than they'd get refining it with max skills. If they want, they can turn around and buy minerals with that money and do production, if they so desire.

You can't be serious?
You don't see a problem with that statement, I am so glad you don't do my taxes.
Your basing your assumption on ore selling for 10 - 20% more than it does now?

So unless miners can sell ore for 20% more than they could get "now", they will be losing income.

No. You'd sell it for 10-20% more than you'd get for selling the minerals at today's prices.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1558 - 2014-03-26 02:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Having an outpost with better refining capability than a POS is rather offensive.

First, this goes against the idea of "farms and fields" — the point of which is to allow aggressors to deny utility without having to wholesale invade the entire region. Reinforcing a POS is easier for small fleets than reinforcing an outpost.

Second, a POS can be destroyed, looted, and sold for parts & scrap value. Thus outposts violate the much-vaunted "risk versus reward" balance: the outpost has precisely 0 chance of loss since it cannot be destroyed. The only risk to a business running from an outpost is temporary interruption of production.

Outposts already have the advantage of more assembly lines, greater storage capacity and ability to be the pickup or delivery end of a courier contract. They don't need any more advantages.

I can't wait to see the changes CCP has in mind for manufacturing and other activity lines. I'll take this opportunity to remind CCP of the principles of game design espoused by CCP Soundwave:

  1. No game should be more complex than it absolutely needs to be to meet its goals.
  2. A good feature can be based on positive or negative player interaction.
  3. Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences.
  4. Every system should affect, and be affected by, the wider world of the game.
  5. Here are the tools, do something cool with them.
  6. The social experience is more important than practical system balance; the interaction between winners and losers is more interesting than mechanical equality.
  7. Interactions should be about reaching and touching, more than reading numbers.
  8. Things in the world need to make sense.
  9. Players are not entitled to success. There should be an achievement mountain, with players able to find their level and strive to be better.


Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.

Running an outpost is only a matter of ISK. They don't consume fuel, there's no balancing of which modules to put online given the constraints of PG and CPU, and there's no risk of someone stealing all your stuff.

Running a POS is a much more interactive proposition. You have to scale that achievement mountain. You need to combine efforts with other players or go mad in the meantime. There is a real risk that your investment in time and ISK will be destroyed by other players. There is the risk that you could be betrayed by your corp mates who steal from the POS or even simply "forget" to fuel it.

The only smelting advantage should be based on a POS module that can only be anchored in 0.4 and below. There should not be an additional mechanical advantage given to an indestructible structure which requires no maintenance. If outposts were to become destructible and required fuel to maintain, I'd back down on this complaint a little: but I'd still want the efficiency advantage to be held by POSes simply because the poor suckers running POSes need some reward for their self-flagellation.

POSes make sense. Outposts do not.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1559 - 2014-03-26 02:44:04 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.

You are aware that outposts can be conquered, right? If you don't like that an outpost has better reprocessing rates than your pos, take it for yourself.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

tom trade valine
Imperium Technologies
Dracarys.
#1560 - 2014-03-26 03:01:24 UTC
You know I swear I heard the devs tell us awhile back that when they re worked the ice belts it would make things better too, and that it was so null sec corps would want to ice mine more and make it more reasonable for prices cause no they null sec alliance would be able to mine there own ice easier. I really start to wonder if they even play this game cause when they reworked the ice belts all it did was drive the prices of ice and ice products up, for things that need ice even fuel blocks and jump fuel. So now when the rework the refining this will drive the prices off all ores up cause the high sec miners will not get as good refine and in order to get perfect refine we need to buy a implant that means you have planned to break something that is working fine. Well ccp is driving itself to ruin cause instead of fixing things they are damaging them and with no real content for the basic player IE new mission, and storylines the game is losing its luster and they have had less subscriptions then normal and more players seem to be leaving then staying. maybe they need to leave the reprocessing they way it is and work on something that is really broken