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News: Operation Highlander Monument Unveiled on Caldari Prime
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Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#61 - 2014-03-24 21:55:49 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As far as desecrating monuments to the dead, well, we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise. Just don't be surprised when we catch the people doing it, interrogate them, and some of them turn out to be in Blaque's pay. We won't - we've had first hand experience of Black Eagle tactics.

The rest of the perpetrators can look forward to a nice jail term where they'll finally contribute in a meaningful way to society through the work programs. Perhaps even scrubbing and repairing desecrated shrines and monuments - wouldn't that be nice?


I would be wholly in favor of execution, actually.

If you disrespect the dead like that, you should join them.

Katrina Oniseki
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#62 - 2014-03-24 22:18:39 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As far as desecrating monuments to the dead, well, we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise. Just don't be surprised when we catch the people doing it, interrogate them, and some of them turn out to be in Blaque's pay. We won't - we've had first hand experience of Black Eagle tactics.

The rest of the perpetrators can look forward to a nice jail term where they'll finally contribute in a meaningful way to society through the work programs. Perhaps even scrubbing and repairing desecrated shrines and monuments - wouldn't that be nice?


I would be wholly in favor of execution, actually.

If you disrespect the dead like that, you should join them.

Right after they clean and repair the monuments.

Not all of us are as shallow as we are made out to be.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-03-24 22:56:52 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise.

Oh look, another ugly and completely inaccurate generalisation made by a person who well and truly should be above such things.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-03-24 23:29:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As far as desecrating monuments to the dead, well, we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise.


This is pretty spot on, we don't hold anything sacred. Well other than freedom, individualism, equality, opportunity, democracy, representation, citizenship, awareness, participation, suffrage, activism, dignity, justice, solidarity, responsibility, and any awesome thing that ends in a "y" you can think of-y.

But aside from that, nope. Not a single value, not a single thing sacred. Honestly we're just horrible people.

This is why the Federation must be destroyed.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2014-03-25 02:51:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise.

Oh look, another ugly and completely inaccurate generalisation made by a person who well and truly should be above such things.

Can't you just let me be angry sometimes?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#66 - 2014-03-25 02:57:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
we already know that there's nothing the Federation holds sacred, so it's not a huge surprise.

Oh look, another ugly and completely inaccurate generalisation made by a person who well and truly should be above such things.

Can't you just let me be angry sometimes?

No. They would most likely die from a brain aneurysm if they let angry comments go unflamed.Big smile

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Lyckeus Morre
can't do that while warping
#67 - 2014-03-25 02:57:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You want an apology Lyckeus?


No. I was still in the Amarr Slave Pens when this went down. But I still made the trek to pay my respects to the Dead, rgardless of side.

I was mearly pointing out the overall, not the details, so that is my mistake.

Oh, execution is a bit much. Make them clean them and restore them. If you just execute them, how long till the ones you miss escalate from graffiti to practicing demoltion skills...

Just a thought.

If your guns like us more, chances are, our guns wont hate you any less...
Jace Sarice
#68 - 2014-03-25 14:34:42 UTC
Despite their periodic attempts to demonstrate otherwise, Ishukone execs aren't idiots. People are reading way too much into this.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2014-03-25 16:59:37 UTC
Lyckeus Morre wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You want an apology Lyckeus?


No. I was still in the Amarr Slave Pens when this went down. But I still made the trek to pay my respects to the Dead, rgardless of side.

I was mearly pointing out the overall, not the details, so that is my mistake.

Oh, execution is a bit much. Make them clean them and restore them. If you just execute them, how long till the ones you miss escalate from graffiti to practicing demoltion skills...

Just a thought.


I agree, regarding execution, incidentally. But you were flat out wrong, not slightly mistaken.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jace Sarice
#70 - 2014-03-25 19:38:53 UTC
Besides people reading too much into this, they are also literally interpreting the event incorrectly. The monument was jointly commissioned and funded by the CEP and Federation Senate. This was not something that Ishukone did on their own. They mediated the deal that granted part of Caldari Prime back to the State and they currently hold administrative responsibilities. Nothing more, nothing less.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#71 - 2014-03-25 19:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
Jace[quote]]They mediated the deal that granted part of Caldari Prime back to the State and they currently hold administrative responsibilities. Nothing more, nothing less


Im going have to pick you up on that Jace. Thats clearly false. Propaganda in favour of Ishukone. The planet was liberated yc110.
When the titan was destroyed, State still had full control of the planet and its sovereingty.

They agreed to ceasefire. Ended up signing treaty i think few days later. In that treaty they agreed to give half the sovereignty of the planet away.

They gave 50% away, not get 50% back. I know it sounds better for you liberals that way, that is not the case. You did not have the guts to keep on fighting for whole planet, make them pay in blood for every inch they wanted.

You gave it away Jace, you gave it away goddam it jace .
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2014-03-25 20:02:18 UTC
It's a little more complex than that. We had de facto control over the whole planet, but de jure control over none of it before Ishukone's deal. After the deal we gave up de facto control over half the planet, but the half we retained control over became ours de jure - through force of law, not just force of arms, you see?

Military experts had known for some time that the threat of the Shiigeru was only going to work for so long as the Federation proved unwilling to pay the price of removing it - once they went all in, there was no way to retain our foothold on the planet by force. Overwhelming Federal forces took just about the entire Navy and we had lost our ability to reinforce in strength.

De facto control is only half the job, Tom. Until and unless you can get the other side to cede de jure control you really haven't finished the job - and that's what caused the whole thing to come crashing down, in the end, only half the job was done.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-03-25 20:08:26 UTC
And in case you hadn't guessed, Tom, shooting at us isn't going to get you de jure control of the other half.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#74 - 2014-03-25 20:16:44 UTC
Maybe so Pieter, they gave 50% away so they could keep 50% with de jure control. For me he is twisting the truth.

Full job was done Pieter, back in yc110. Fact that the Federation decided to break an international treaty and attack Caldari sovereingty, only two ways to handle that situation. You fight to keep what is rightfully yours or you give it up. They gave it up, gave away 50% to keep de jure control over the other 50%.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#75 - 2014-03-25 20:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
And in case you hadn't guessed, Tom, shooting at us isn't going to get you de jure control of the other half.


Not doing it isnt going to get us back the other half either. Price for keeping it should be paid in Gallante blood, on the ground in the homeworld and throughtout the Federation. Carried out by the Caldari freedom/resistance fighters.

Who you would call terrorists Andreus. When you hold something that does not belong to you, and your unreasonable, you have to expect consequences.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-03-25 20:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
TomHorn wrote:
Full job was done Pieter, back in yc110. Fact that the Federation decided to break an international treaty and attack Caldari sovereingty

Who else do we know who broke international treaties to attack someone else's sovereignty?

Oh, wait, what was that? His name was Heth, and he did it for the very same planet, and subsequently the majority of planets in Placid?

Perish the thought.

TomHorn wrote:
only two ways to handle that situation. You fight to keep what is rightfully yours or you give it up. They gave it up, gave away 50% to keep de jure control over the other 50%.

I see you're still clinging to the abject delusion that Heth and the Provists could have maintained control of any part of Caldari Prime once the Shiigeru was gone.

TomHorn wrote:
Not doing it isnt going to get us back the other half either.

Except Ishukone didn't shoot at us, choosing instead to negotiate, and almost overnight ensured that where the State would inevitably have lost all of the homeworld, you instead kept half of it and had a far, far more secure claim to it than you did before. So not only is your statement violent, extremist generalisation which is generally wrong in and of itself, it's also provably wrong in specific.

TomHorn wrote:
Who you would call terrorists Andreus. When you hold something that does not belong to you, and your unreasonable, you have to expect consequences.

I'd actually bother answering this question honestly if you weren't an avowed public supporter of the Reclaiming, which advocates Amarrians taking possession of a hell of a lot of things that don't belong to them.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#77 - 2014-03-25 20:37:17 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
And in case you hadn't guessed, Tom, shooting at us isn't going to get you de jure control of the other half.


Not doing it isnt going to get us back the other half either. Price for keeping it should be paid in Gallante blood, on the ground in the homeworld and throughtout the Federation. Carried out by the Caldari freedom/resistance fighters.

Who you would call terrorists Andreus. When you hold something that does not belong to you, and your unreasonable, you have to expect consequences.

It won't be Gallente blood that buys back your world. You over estimate your ability while under estimating ours, this course of action would lead to disaster for your people. Thankfully, your leaders see that.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#78 - 2014-03-25 20:38:07 UTC
You seem to think it would of been cake walk. Your just going walk in take over a whole planet. People who the majority hate you with fanatacism and had control on the ground. Would of took years, cost in lives millions,maybe billions yours as well as ours. All the time the navy would of been trying to work away to get their capital ships back into the solar system. Take back control of the airspace.

Toughnut to crack.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-03-25 21:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
You're just regurgitating Provist propaganda at this point, most of which is outright wrong, so I'm not even going to bother.

Sufficed to say, the fact that Ishukone decided to negotiate rather than scream and stamp their feet like spoilt children (i.e. the standard Provist modus operandi) neatly sidestepped all of these issues, restored peace to the planet and secured the Caldari claim on one half of the planet better than it's had at any point in the last two centuries.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#80 - 2014-03-25 21:04:15 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
You seem to think it would of been cake walk. Your just going walk in take over a whole planet. People who the majority hate you with fanatacism and had control on the ground. Would of took years, cost in lives millions,maybe billions yours as well as ours. All the time the navy would of been trying to work away to get their capital ships back into the solar system. Take back control of the airspace.

Toughnut to crack.




Never said it would be easy, or that we where even aiming to take complete control of the planet. From my perspective, the whole thing seemed less conquest, and more quarantine and insurance against direct hostility. That worked until Heath took power. Now that hostilities have somewhat died down again the Gallente are slowly returning the planet back to the caldari, possibly hoping to further damper the support for the war. Gunfire is unneeded at this point, time, politic and understanding can solve this.

If you really need a cause to fight for there are plenty of pirates about that could use a beating.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.