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So much about the combat system from Eve...

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Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#21 - 2014-03-25 17:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruskarn Andedare
Tacomaco wrote:
Well I don't expect some complex "rock scissors paper" combat system but at least a 2 way system. Big ship balance to small ship, small ship balance to big ship. What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?

I don't expect some complex combat system with class balance like in World of Warcraft where they balance the combat based on 4-5 combat elements. Even more simple to understand. You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?

Just make small ship to big ship balance and the other way around. Who knows maybe the frigate players might try some bigger ships...

For now Eve combat is small billiard balls shooting at big billiard balls and that's about it...


Never heard of Mobile Depots, targeting mods or anti-frigate weapons? Smartbombs?

The battleship can easily refit to spec agaianst frigates, the frigate has a hard time refitting to do extra damage against the battleship.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#22 - 2014-03-25 17:42:36 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
What's the point of big "hit points" when you can't fight back?

Walls don't fight back either. Buff walls.

Quote:
You can hit some big npc boss and that boss can't hit you back, what's the point of fighting if you always win, or is that the reason you are in Eve?


You're suggesting that frigates always win vs battleships, which is nonsense.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mario Putzo
#23 - 2014-03-25 17:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Tacomaco wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Ya that is not how things work. Damage inflicted is based on the make up of the charge or crystal being used. If you want to adjust damage done than argue about the damage on charges.


It's not about damage types and damage resistances. It's about the nominal damage done based on weapon signature and targets signature.

- big weapon signature shooting at small targets signature. Small change to hit to none and very bad damage when it hits.
- small weapon signature shooting at big targets signature. Always always hit and always does 100% damage. That's wrong.

How shall I put it so every one understands it. You can hit somebody with a baseball bat and hurt them but if you hit a wall with it, it's going to take a long time to bring down.


A small weapon tracking a larger object is always going to have a higher potential to hit, there is nothing wrong with that it is basic physics.

As for application If you took a 5cm bouncy ball and threw it at a 10m Squared brick wall the entire bouncy ball has a very high chance to hit the wall with its full capacity, even if your aim is not perfect and you don't hit center mass.

If you then took that 10m wall and threw it at the bouncy ball only 5cm of that wall is going to make contact. It doesn't matter that the wall is 10m square the target is only 5cm and thus only 5cm of that wall is going to come into contact.

Im not sure what is so hard to comprehend.

If I fire a 40m shell at a 400m target all 40m's of that shell can contact. If I fire a 400m shell at a 40m target only 40m of that 400m shell can make contact.
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#24 - 2014-03-25 17:50:06 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.


Stealth bombers. Frigate size ships with big guns...

The problem is very simple..

-big weapons vs small targets have drawback to the point they aren't usable. Tracking speed and bad hits if there are any hits. This part of the mechanic is ok.
-small weapons vs big targets, no drawbacks. Full damage, always hits.

Ok, the dps is small but that's why they are small weapons on small cheap ships. There is no difference in dps between hitting a medium size ships or a large size ship

That's what I'm saying, if you use a weapon against the wrong target there should be a drawback, not just for big weapon vs small target but for small weapon vs big targets. Without this the balance only goes one way.
Ruvin Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-03-25 17:51:21 UTC
You wont get down a wall with a baseball bat , but be sure with a small hammer you will ,takes a while but doable . Also a rifleman is bad example , but a light fast vehicle can get a tank down even if he needs some time shooting at it .
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#26 - 2014-03-25 17:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.


Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#27 - 2014-03-25 18:11:06 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

just so you know, historically, zodiacs HAVE done severe damage to larger ships, high caliber weaponry and the occasional RPG is nothing to laugh at, even with a battleships armored plating.


Except the battleship was not trying to shoot back with its main battery. It had 20mm and .50 cal guns to do that. No such equivalency exists in EvE.


There are no direct analogues in Eve (as in actual small guns), but Eve battleships do have many weapons systems and tactics to combat (and kill) small ships, and I'm not talking about comedy fits. The decision to not give battleships a separate line of point defense turrets is part of the design, and the lack of such an analogous system in-game is not in and of itself a flaw or problem, but this is typically the best that people can come up with when futilely advocating for such a change.

Furthermore, if a battleship did decide to shoot such a small craft with its main gun, it would score catastrophic damage with a lucky or well-aimed hit. Its much the same in Eve.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#28 - 2014-03-25 18:39:30 UTC
As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.

Yes a small machine gun can take out a tank, but it will take a while and use a lot of ammo. A hand gun could also in theory take out a tank, but usually the tank will just run your ass over before you can do any real damage. i.e. and ibis shooting a titan. Eventually the ibis can kill a titan, if it doesn't regenerate, but the titan just needs one hit which it will get eventually and the ibis dies.

Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.

basicly what you are describing is a big object, lets go with a huge tank, attempting to fire its single cannon at an object running around it faster then the gunner can swing the gun around. As long as the object keeps moving in such a way as the gunner can't predict where its going, the gun will miss. But eventually, the object will screw up and get blown to bits.

Now add that both are computer controlled, the smaller object will mose too fast for the large one to hit dead on, but it will occationally nick it with its ammo.

Now lets flip it. You as the smaller object firing say a sub machine gun at the tank will almost always hit it, no matter how fast you run around it. why? because it has a huge area to hit. and its moving way slower then you are. and you can easily predict where you will hit it.

Now computer control and it will be nearly impossible for you to miss. And your weapon will dish out the same ammout of damnage if you keep in range, and will RARELY miss.

EvE combat works fine when compaired to real world physics. Small weapons and boats disable or blow up large ones often, its just that if they screw up.. blam.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Victor Andall
#29 - 2014-03-25 18:45:05 UTC
TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#30 - 2014-03-25 18:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Batelle wrote:
and I'm not talking about comedy fits.


Lol, the first BC fit I ever made as a noob was with half my high slots having small guns to shoot frigs...

I agree there are some tools at a battleship's disposal, but they seem woefully inadequate. They are obviously contrived for "balance" and not reflexive of sound military doctrine. I know most people hate the idea, but I think realism can go a long way to improving a space game.
Tipsy Titteron
Do You Even Irony Broew
#31 - 2014-03-25 19:03:21 UTC
The best thing about the OPs many flaws in his logic is that he compares a small hightech interstellar warship and a big hightech interstellar warship to being a wooden raft with small guns against aircraft carriers with missiles.

It would be more like having a frigate class warship with smaller cannons and a smaller load of missiles against an aircraft carrier that has the ability to bomb the **** out of the frigate.

The frigate might be smaller, less sturdy, etc, but it can still punch a hole into the aircraft carrier, because, its guns are powerfull.
Now that we've all agreed the OP made a mistake and posted his splurg where it didnt belong, lets let the thread die.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2014-03-25 19:23:51 UTC
You are trying to apply real world logic to science fiction, this never ends well.

Yes in the real world, a zodiac with a small machine gun could probably never, ever sink an aircraft carrier. However from a gameplay mechanics standpoint making ships IMMUNE TO PVP is never a good thing. So battleships should just be impervious to damage from anything smaller than what.. a cruiser?

This maybe satisfies your 'desire for realism' but does not make gameplay 'more fun' .. it makes it more boring for both parties, since where the was an amazing battle to be had before (say between a battleship and a gang of 3-4 players) there is now a whole lot of NOTHING since they will just ignore each other.

It's like people who complain that the planets don't orbit, or that their ships steer like a boat. Nope, it's not realistic but it is the way EVE works. Making the planets spin around does not directly create more 'fun' for anybody or create any new gameplay.

EVE is not meant to be a real world physics simulator, it is fantasy/sf with its own fantasy/sf physics and reality.

Did you think Star Wars sucked because laser swords are make believe as well?
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-03-25 19:31:21 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
As has been addressed already, your topic is a fail of logic.


Given time, and unlimited ammo/energy you can pretty much destroy anything.



only in games.
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#34 - 2014-03-25 19:46:59 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.


Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine. Especially if the change means you have to get a bigger ship and you don't know how to make money...

Eve might be different from other games but the mindless fanboyz are all the same, "the game is perfect". Next major patch they change it, oh, wait then it had to be broken.

I'm surprised CCP didn't implement this change yet because reducing the effectiveness of smaller weapons against bigger targets would mean pvp needs bigger ships and more of the specialized small ships to counter the big ones like some bigger stealth bombers.

Oh, well, CCP does what they can, like buffing mining by nerfing refining....
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2014-03-25 19:48:37 UTC
The thing is you are arguing for realism, not balance.

Realism =/= balance.
Victor Andall
#36 - 2014-03-25 19:50:09 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
Victor Andall wrote:
TL;DR Everyone told me EVE is balanced but I know better.


Yea, there was a time everyone believed the Earth was flat. You could even fall of the edge if you walk to far. Let's not think about the game, let's pretend everything is fine.


Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies.

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2014-03-25 19:54:19 UTC
Dragon Outlaw
Rogue Fleet
#38 - 2014-03-25 19:58:40 UTC
If you watch any of the Star-Trek series, the Enterprise also had a hard time hitting smaller ships Roll
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2014-03-25 20:24:16 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
All the players I've talked with until now seem to think the combat system of Eve is nice and balanced. When you play the same game for years you kinda tend to oversee some things....

In truth, the combat in Eve is only half way balanced, that is the bigger the ships they are the less effective they are against smaller ships. A battleship has a hard time hitting a frigate or destroyer. This is ok because if a battleship lands a full dmg hit on a frigate it's gone.

Now comes the part that it's not balanced. Smaller weapons have no problem doing full damage to large target all the time.

A weapon with 40m signature hit a 400m signature and does full damage. Why? This is absurd, it's like a zodiac with a machine gun attacking a cruiser(the kind that floats on water) and sinking it. Yea, yea, game mechanics, this is crazy! It's like pirates in wood rafts with machines guns sinking aircraft carriers.

This can be fixed by reducing the damage based on the signature difference likes (weapon sig)/(target sig)*dmg. The game as it is now reduces the chance to land a hit on small targets. Why is this only one way balanced?

If you shoot a 40m sig weapon at a 400m sig it should do 10% dmg. If you shoot it at a 125m sig target it should do 32%. CCP can even throw in some weapon skill to upscale the small weapon signature when used on bigger targets.

Because this mechanic is missing it leads to some absurd tactics in the game. Somebody said nobody does pvp in battleships(probably ment solo pvp). Of course not, what's the point of using a battleship if it sits in the worst part of the balance scale in PvP.

You want to attack a battlecruiser with a frigate? Why should that work? You want to gank a capital size ship then get ships that have the right size signature for this kind of target.

I wonder if anyone at CCP even plays this game or even had a close look at it.




Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh.
then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.

Make sense?

Besides the smaller weapons have limitations on range and raw dps. and seriously if you can bring 80 guys to take on a battleships with noobshiops (bestfleetcomp) you deserve to win.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Tacomaco
No Taxes just fun
#40 - 2014-03-25 21:40:41 UTC
Jill Chastot wrote:

Or you could say i could unload my pistol into that warehouse over there, if i missed i'd shoot myself tbh.
then taking your 150mm cannon and aiming for an ant on the hill over there.

Make sense?


It's not about missing the warehouse, it's about demolishing the building. How long do you think you have to shoot at a building with a pistol to bring it down? You're just trying to provide a real world example for some broken mechanic from Eve. You can't do that, it doesn't exist.

Victor Andall wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize it was you, Mr. Galilei. My apologies.


And this is what a 10 year old kid answers when he doesn't understand what he reads. Just ask again if you don't understand, maybe I can help you. If it's too hard you can try again later.