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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
Vanessa Serenity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-03-24 20:04:31 UTC
I approve if the change will apply to k-space local aswell. There is way too little risk farming in null. Just dock whenever someone enters local. Where is the risk vs. reward in that?
Alundil
Rolled Out
#402 - 2014-03-24 20:10:10 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
Hedge Fox wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
Hedge Fox wrote:
CCP Development Plan: Focus on ISK-sink creation. We need to blow up more ISK so we can sell more PLEX. Pirate

How is this an isk sink?


When ships blow up, ISK vanishes in varying quantities.
Some may get looted or salvaged, but a percentage of it is removed from circulation entirely. Thus, ISK Sink.

Enabling more mechanics making defensive strategies less effective, would in affect, indirectly consequent in more ships lost, thus adding to the ISK sinks.

Much like making interceptors immune to bubbles and increasing warp speeds for them, makes them prime hunters in 0.0 to catch ratters. More death, more money for CCP.

Ships being blown up are not an isk sink. They are isk faucets, because of insurance payouts.

I don't know what the breakdown is (CCP would though) on the percentage of ships that asplode with insurance or sans insurance.

But I am willing to go out on a ledge and estimate that the number of T2 & T3 hulls that go pop is probably within 15% or so of the number of T1 ships that go pop. Why is this relevant....because T2 and T3 hulls get nearly nothing from insurance. Furthermore, from an ISK efficiency standpoint, it doesn't make any financial sense at all for a pilot to pay for insurance on a hull unless he/she knows it'll asplode in the 3 months the policy is active. Therefore most of the hulls that are in wh space never receive insurance past the initial purchase (if even that).

This doesn't even take into account the 50% (avg) module loss on every destroyed hull, regardless of insurance.

Furthermore, with the mineral re-balance that took place a few months back, the insurance rates (that are based on mineral values, I'll remind you) are badly out of whack even if one wanted to purchase insurance.

Case in point: Dominix Insurance

So....still an ISK sink.....

I'm right behind you

Faxanadu Phantasm
Magister Mortalis.
#403 - 2014-03-24 20:10:43 UTC
It's good that CCP is thinking about wormhole content to make it more interesting

I was thinking, maybe we can look at some options that assist in our ability to fight out in null so instead of it being WH vs WH

Giving us an added edge in Null would make PVP more appealing to WH PVP cops in line with the objective of the tweaks proposed by CCP in this thread

Maybe we can have some kind of WH cyno that when 3 different corps while all in the same fleet activated them in their own wormholes it would open a new null connection to the same null region from each of those wormholes (but not perhaps not to the same null system) I expect there would need to be a re-activiation delay on the order of a day or so for obvious reasons

Or if you spend more than a day in wh-space your ship's communications systems need to recalibrate when entering k-space and you dont show up in local chat for 30 seconds when you enter into k-space (perhaps this effect can last for a handful of jumps as long as the 30 second timer doesnt expire before jumping) Ships entering k-space in this way would still be visible on dscan and from combat probes of course

I dunno, im just throwing ideas out here... It doesnt really matter... if CCP feels a delay for k162's to be scanable is desired, then thats just something we'll need to incorporate into our playstyles

We'll see what happens





Viaana
Perkone
Caldari State
#404 - 2014-03-24 20:11:20 UTC
Vanessa Serenity wrote:
I approve if the change will apply to k-space local aswell. There is way too little risk farming in null. Just dock whenever someone enters local. Where is the risk vs. reward in that?


I completely agree, i honestly can't see how you can say that a signature spawn offers too much warning when doing "anything" in a wormhole, be it farming or looking for pvp. And then leave all of k-space with a local list which informs you the INSTANT a person enters the system.

I am more than happy to see this change implemented, but only if local is delayed by the same amount. As we have no local in j-space this will be effectively the same change. To say one makes a system too safe, while having an even easier warning in lowsec, and nullsec is pathetic. Anyone who suggests otherwise is merely looking after their own interests.
Frothgar
Take The Bait.
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2014-03-24 20:13:28 UTC
I've lived almost exclusively in W space since its introduction and had multiple incarnations over the years.

True story, one of the catalysts for VoC was after Aquila attacked my "Carebear Class" running Anoms in what became Volta's WH. The experience led to a conversation on Aquila's comms and me moving in to Aquila's WH, the group grew in size and a year later VoC was formed.

This encounter would likely have never taken place if we knew they were there and coming, and the impromptu "OH ****!!!" nature of the encounter and subsequent escalations was tremendously enjoyable and one of the most significant events in my time playing Eve.

I'm all for more encounters between players and support the proposed change.

Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#406 - 2014-03-24 20:13:54 UTC
Honestly I can't figure out how this is still going on.

CCP, want a guaranteed way to gain 90% minimum approval for everyone who loves and lives in Wormhole space?

TURN OFF THE DISCOVERY SCANNER.

Bam, problem solved.

Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#407 - 2014-03-24 20:14:40 UTC
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:


Maybe we can have some kind of WH cyno..



Because your name is Faxanadu (which was an awesome NES game) I will spare you the bad mouth. However, I find it fair to warn you that any ideas of cynos and wh space are met with great hostility. Good luck!

No trolling please

Alundil
Rolled Out
#408 - 2014-03-24 20:18:38 UTC
And just because it's out there

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform

I didn't create the poll. Someone else did. And someone's pretty mad already so vOv EVE being EVE.

I'm right behind you

Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#409 - 2014-03-24 20:19:34 UTC
Frothgar wrote:
I've lived almost exclusively in W space since its introduction and had multiple incarnations over the years.

True story, one of the catalysts for VoC was after Aquila attacked my "Carebear Class" running Anoms in what became Volta's WH. The experience led to a conversation on Aquila's comms and me moving in to Aquila's WH, the group grew in size and a year later VoC was formed.

This encounter would likely have never taken place if we knew they were there and coming, and the impromptu "OH ****!!!" nature of the encounter and subsequent escalations was tremendously enjoyable and one of the most significant events in my time playing Eve.

I'm all for more encounters between players and support the proposed change.



So I'm curious. you claim essentially that this fight would not have occurred under the new system with the disovery scanner. It did however happen basically with everything else the same sans discovery scanner.

So why then do you think it is necessary to not only roll back to the environment that allowed your story to take place, but to push the pendulum further and potentially cause more harm than good?
Zukan
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#410 - 2014-03-24 20:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zukan
Imo a total block on an early warning sign makes it *too* difficult. Many WH dwellers enjoy the PvP aspect, but all of them have to fund their wh life.

Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.

edit: wrong char. Obv. don't do WHs on RvB char.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#411 - 2014-03-24 20:21:58 UTC
na'Vi Ronuken wrote:


Yo - if they had dreads logged off in the system it would be on the site with them to make the site running faster. so YES you can say with a high degree of certainty how many caps they have and how many people they got.



Yo, not every person in corp/alliance is in need of ISK or interested in running sites for extended period of time. A group can have 5/6 pilots doing sites and 10 others who are online but are not participating. Not to mention that many groups use jabber/slack to ping their offline membership.
Einar Matveinen
Mahe Ratu
#412 - 2014-03-24 20:26:01 UTC
Zukan wrote:

Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.


+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2014-03-24 20:27:04 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.

I know, but the point was the with the current instant spawn of the sigs in overview and probe scanner view without probing you don't have any people in eve so lazy/stupid any more.
They are gone extinct and so is a lot of player interaction.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#414 - 2014-03-24 20:29:18 UTC
Einar Matveinen wrote:
Zukan wrote:

Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.


+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not.

Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec!

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Faxanadu Phantasm
Magister Mortalis.
#415 - 2014-03-24 20:31:58 UTC
Something else I'd like to comment on

To the folks who would like to open up options to increase the ease of ganking other WH bros' PVE activity...

We're all out in WH space for the same reasons... we're willing to accept the risk, and invest the required effort and vigilance to make living there viable. That means watching Dscan and probing.

If you want to add more eggs for us to juggle to make living in WH harder, thats fine but at least give us the option to exert that added vigilance. The point i think is to be able to prey on people who leave themselves open to it.

Thats why i think the nullbears should be the real targets, because theyre traditionally complacent deep in their cozy null regions buffered by all their intel channels so they can fap and mine/rat in peace right? Theyre the targets who are most likely to forgo exerting vigilance because theyre not as hardened as us WH bros who are accustom to putting in that extra effort.

On the same note, I think youll find that thats why WH pilots may be slightly more difficult to gank because they're used to having to pay attention.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#416 - 2014-03-24 20:32:17 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Einar Matveinen wrote:
Zukan wrote:

Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.


+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not.

Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec!


Please don't turn this into a no local in null threadnaught.
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#417 - 2014-03-24 20:36:12 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Hate to break it to you, but this wasn't possible before the overlay scanner either unless the farmers were being lazy/stupid.

I know, but the point was the with the current instant spawn of the sigs in overview and probe scanner view without probing you don't have any people in eve so lazy/stupid any more.
They are gone extinct and so is a lot of player interaction.


I agree. And I agree the discovery scanner should just be scrapped. Honestly it serves little useful purpose beyond being a new player "look exploration!" tool.

But the thing I will keep harping on is that I think it is a bad idea to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. CCP should have a very good understanding at this point of the law of unintended consequences, which I believe would read its ugly head with some of the changes proposed.
SambaSol
Veritas Theory
#418 - 2014-03-24 20:38:43 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Einar Matveinen wrote:
Zukan wrote:

Surely the same should apply to nullsec too? Delayed entry in the local chat channel. Botters and Ratters hiding is even more annoying and more frequently an issue than missing a wh fight.


+1 to this post, you're right, delayed beacons in w-space, delayed local in null-space, why null sec ratters may rat in a relatively safe environment and w-space players not.

Exactly a good example why local should be removed from null sec!


Please don't turn this into a no local in null threadnaught.

WH's have suffered from the nerfs leveled against k-space, why should the reverse not also be true?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#419 - 2014-03-24 20:39:30 UTC
No I don't like this.
If someone takes the effort of dropping probes and actively watching them, there's zero reason why they should not be able to detect new sigs immediately.
This change would swing it too fart the other way.

Probes should detect the sigs immediately, overlay needs a delay.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
#420 - 2014-03-24 20:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Adoris Nolen
If it doesn't pop up on overlay & probes for a few minutes I'd love this change.


You guys could set it up as:
0-1:30 minute nothing.
1:30 & <10% mass = probe able
1:30 & >10% mass = sensor overlay & probe able.
2hrs = system wide overlay you warp too. No probing required. Only in wormholes, not k-space.