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Serpentis Logistical Outpost (pt 1 and 2) - Risk VS Reward Issue?

Author
Tyrii Celest'jael
Imperial Trade Syndicate
#1 - 2014-03-22 22:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrii Celest'jael
Is the risk versus reward model for the "Serpentis Logistical Outpost" balanced as it currently stands?

Currently the complex has an initial site (which for me appeared in Low-sec) that requires scanning down which then in turn will escalate to next site (again, in Low-sec). Part 1 of this complex is relatively doable so I will focus mostly on part 2 (escalation).

From online my research it seems that part 2 (escalation) has a chance to drop Serpentis BPC (all the way up to the Vindicator) along with other very respectable complex loot and thus it seemed like a worthy expedition. I did notice that quite a few reviews of this complex stated that it was unusually long and painful to finish this complex. Specifically, the reviews mentioned that the last room of this complex has multiple scramming frigs (which seem to spawn in waves also), has massive DPS from multiple BS along with towers and other random NPCs, and then to top it off has a tier 3 neut tower with ridiculous HP and powerful neuting potential.

To handle this situation I decided to use 3 accounts and to use 2 carriers to jump my PVE/PVP ships to the closest/safest Low-sec station system to where the escalation was located. As it turned out, that was a seemingly, relatively quiet Low-sec station system that was 2 jumps from the actual Low-sec system where the escalation was located. The PVE ships consisted of a Paladin with proper anti-Serpentis harderners, a dual small shield booster omni-tanked Tengu, and a falcon for scouting and anti-piracy support.

Next, I used the Falcon to scout my PVE ships to the Low-sec escalation system and begin the grind. Room 1 was challenging but doable. Room 2, I warp in the Paladin and then start to tank all aggro along with the heavy neuting. I counter the neuting by injecting cap boosters (which I had to restock multiple times as I dodged the newly arrived pirates trying to get a juicy Paladin kill). Next, I bring in the Tengu to help clear out the scram frigs. After some time, the aggro switches to the Tengu and it quickly begins to have it's capacitor neuted to oblivion and ofc a new wave of scram frigs spawns. The Tengu is pointed and thus cannot kill the newly arrived scram frigs before it pops from the heavy neuting and DPS.

To wrap it up, I finally finish the complex with the Paladin after many waves of new BS and scramming frigs and the typical officer and he ONLY drops the overseer loot (worth 50 mil'ish) with no other loot worth mentioning. To complete this process I lost a Tengu and had pirates constantly chasing me from stations, star gates, and scanning me out which I countered with my own pirate boats (Cynabal/Curse/Falcon/etc).

The bottom line: To finish this complex I spent ISK on carrier/cyno fuel, bought new modules/ships/ammo, lost a Tengu, might've lost a Paladin if I messed up. I gained a 50mil loot drop along with maybe another 50mil in bounties. Thus, my conclusion is that I will not run that complex again until the risk or reward is adjusted.

Does this complex seem balanced or does it require a reiteration? Does the current density of RL-pirates make Low-sec complexes relatively more difficult and thus should at least have their minimum loot drop increased? Thoughts?

TL;DR:
Hard complex so let's fix it's risk versus reward model? Remove/alter the tier 3 neut tower in the last room of the escalation or increase the odds of good loot dropping for this complex.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#2 - 2014-03-22 22:39:54 UTC
No.

This is the hardest lowsec ded site to do and we all avoid it.

Thanks for the epic Battle report though :)

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-03-22 22:42:00 UTC
Shocked

With all the various changes and nerfs that's been done to Exploration it seems to me that CCP doesn't want it to be profitable, just time consuming.

Evil



DMC
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4 - 2014-03-22 23:13:06 UTC
Tyrii Celest'jael wrote:
Is the risk versus reward model for the "Serpentis Logistical Outpost" balanced as it currently stands?

Currently the complex has an initial site (which for me appeared in Low-sec) that requires scanning down which then in turn will escalate to next site (again, in Low-sec). Part 1 of this complex is relatively doable so I will focus mostly on part 2 (escalation).

From online my research it seems that part 2 (escalation) has a chance to drop Serpentis BPC (all the way up to the Vindicator) along with other very respectable complex loot and thus it seemed like a worthy expedition. I did notice that quite a few reviews of this complex stated that it was unusually long and painful to finish this complex. Specifically, the reviews mentioned that the last room of this complex has multiple scramming frigs (which seem to spawn in waves also), has massive DPS from multiple BS along with towers and other random NPCs, and then to top it off has a tier 3 neut tower with ridiculous HP and powerful neuting potential.

To handle this situation I decided to use 3 accounts and to use 2 carriers to jump my PVE/PVP ships to the closest/safest Low-sec station system to where the escalation was located. As it turned out, that was a seemingly, relatively quiet Low-sec station system that was 2 jumps from the actual Low-sec system where the escalation was located. The PVE ships consisted of a Paladin with proper anti-Serpentis harderners, a dual small shield booster omni-tanked Tengu, and a falcon for scouting and anti-piracy support.

Next, I used the Falcon to scout my PVE ships to the Low-sec escalation system and begin the grind. Room 1 was challenging but doable. Room 2, I warp in the Paladin and then start to tank all aggro along with the heavy neuting. I counter the neuting by injecting cap boosters (which I had to restock multiple times as I dodged the newly arrived pirates trying to get a juicy Paladin kill). Next, I bring in the Tengu to help clear out the scram frigs. After some time, the aggro switches to the Tengu and it quickly begins to have it's capacitor neuted to oblivion and ofc a new wave of scram frigs spawns. The Tengu is pointed and thus cannot kill the newly arrived scram frigs before it pops from the heavy neuting and DPS.

To wrap it up, I finally finish the complex with the Paladin after many waves of new BS and scramming frigs and the typical officer and he ONLY drops the overseer loot (worth 50 mil'ish) with no other loot worth mentioning. To complete this process I lost a Tengu and had pirates constantly chasing me from stations, star gates, and scanning me out which I countered with my own pirate boats (Cynabal/Curse/Falcon/etc).

The bottom line: To finish this complex I spent ISK on carrier/cyno fuel, bought new modules/ships/ammo, lost a Tengu, might've lost a Paladin if I messed up. I gained a 50mil loot drop along with maybe another 50mil in bounties. Thus, my conclusion is that I will not run that complex again until the risk or reward is adjusted.

Does this complex seem balanced or does it require a reiteration? Does the current density of RL-pirates make Low-sec complexes relatively more difficult and thus should at least have their minimum loot drop increased? Thoughts?

TL;DR:
Hard complex so let's fix it's risk versus reward model? Remove/alter the tier 3 neut tower in the last room of the escalation or increase the odds of good loot dropping for this complex.



The complex is fine, you simply used the wrong ships and tactics.

I do part 2 with a couple of remote rep MJD Domis and have never lost either ship. To get the domis to the proper system I just fly them there with microwarp drive and cloak + warp core stabs/nanos fitted and go through gates. No capital ships, tech3s or Marauders needed.
Tyrii Celest'jael
Imperial Trade Syndicate
#5 - 2014-03-22 23:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrii Celest'jael
Jenn aSide wrote:

The complex is fine, you simply used the wrong ships and tactics.

I do part 2 with a couple of remote rep MJD Domis and have never lost either ship. To get the domis to the proper system I just fly them there with microwarp drive and cloak + warp core stabs/nanos fitted and go through gates. No capital ships, tech3s or Marauders needed.


I do agree that the MJD makes a huge difference in this site. Without the MJD, the site would've been far more difficult.

You don't feel that there should at least be a minimum payout for a complex that requires this level of commitment other than the overseer effects?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#6 - 2014-03-23 01:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Tyrii Celest'jael wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

The complex is fine, you simply used the wrong ships and tactics.

I do part 2 with a couple of remote rep MJD Domis and have never lost either ship. To get the domis to the proper system I just fly them there with microwarp drive and cloak + warp core stabs/nanos fitted and go through gates. No capital ships, tech3s or Marauders needed.


I do agree that the MJD makes a huge difference in this site. Without the MJD, the site would've been far more difficult.

You don't feel that there should at least be a minimum payout for a complex that requires this level of commitment other than the overseer effects?


nope - they should make the gurista ded 6 harder to balance the effort for different races more. I can clear the first pockets with a vexor, and I could probably through significant kiting and screwing around finish the end of it with a vexor too.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2014-03-23 02:28:21 UTC
A couple years back, I used to do 4 or 5 of these a week. I would solo them in a Tengu and *If I recall*, a bad drop was still worth 80 million+ along with all the bounties.
Sometimes the string of bad drops was pretty severe.
BUT: I liked the solo work vs reward, and I liked how part 2 needed probes to find me. I would generally do part 1 and save part 2 for the next day, then find another part 1...

Granted, back then, an invuln had passive resists after neuting.
*If I recall* the approach was to kite away from the big DPS, kill the frigs FIRST THING, and kill the neut next.

Lots of people would decline the outpost, so they were always available. I think that bad drops + long hours was the reason.
Add in low sec traffic and it's probably a bad choice to do them.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2014-03-23 22:42:06 UTC
Tyrii Celest'jael wrote:
Is the risk versus reward model for the "Serpentis Logistical Outpost" balanced as it currently stands?


Yes. I love that site and go out of my way to run it when I encounter it. My only problem with it these days is that you can't reset the timer on the escalation. As already stated, it's very rarely run and as a result it ends up coveted by a few people who actually think it's awesome. It's by far the hardest 6/10 equivalent in the game and requires that you take special care but I've never been disappointed by it at the end of the day.

Except when it expires. That sucks.
Jonas Staal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-03-24 08:25:34 UTC
There's no such thing as Risk vs Reward in Exploration.

--> *points to GSO*
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2014-03-24 15:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
forum ate my post here.

Yeah, its one of the hardest serp deadspace encounters, except maybe for the end of provi-hq. The neut towers are meant to be sniped, which is really hard with the damps unless you have a marauder or a second account to draw aggro. And there's just a sick amount of battleships to shoot and the final boss can be a bit scary. But cruiser a-type loot is good when it drops. I'm also sure that given another crack at the plex, you would do it a bit differently and not take as long or lose your tengu.

The site is hard enough that many people ignore it completely, but there are some circumstances where it really is worth doing. Unlike other sites, its not *always* worth doing.

As for it having a minimum payout, it kinda does. 50 something mil for the box plus tons of bounties. Its not great, which is why its not *always* worth doing.

In principle I would agree that most escalations leading from cosmic signatures (not DED coming from an anomaly escalation) needs some kind of buff.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#11 - 2014-03-24 17:34:19 UTC
Tyrii Celest'jael wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

The complex is fine, you simply used the wrong ships and tactics.

I do part 2 with a couple of remote rep MJD Domis and have never lost either ship. To get the domis to the proper system I just fly them there with microwarp drive and cloak + warp core stabs/nanos fitted and go through gates. No capital ships, tech3s or Marauders needed.


I do agree that the MJD makes a huge difference in this site. Without the MJD, the site would've been far more difficult.

You don't feel that there should at least be a minimum payout for a complex that requires this level of commitment other than the overseer effects?


I do Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (THE hardest exploration site, with enough DPS to make an incursion Vanguard site blush) and many times I've only gotta the OPE. No, I don't think any complex should have any kind of minimum reward above the OPE, if they did the reward would soon be meaningless.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#12 - 2014-03-24 17:38:52 UTC
The OP is just seeking some acknowledgement that difficulty and reward are not balanced, which i agree with. You'll often get better OPE from an easy site than you'll often get from a really hard site (which may not even have OPE).

But this is what makes some sites more valuable than others, which is part of the intent of the design.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#13 - 2014-03-24 17:50:38 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Yeah, its one of the hardest serp deadspace encounters, except maybe for the end of provi-hq.


The first time we did a Provincial HQ as a corp, we lost 5 or 6 T3's :(
And there is a good chance it was my fault Oops

Eventually we learned, but oh man, what a learning curve.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-03-24 18:09:24 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Eventually we learned, but oh man, what a learning curve.


That is one of the things i like about exploration.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Tyrii Celest'jael
Imperial Trade Syndicate
#15 - 2014-03-25 00:27:52 UTC
I appreciate all the replies.

Unfortunately, there does not seem to a real consensus other than "that crap is tough and it should be". I was hoping more for a "fix X and then Y will be balanced."
Czeris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-03-25 10:37:25 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Shocked

With all the various changes and nerfs that's been done to Exploration it seems to me that CCP doesn't want it to be profitable, just time consuming.

Evil



DMC



You should run for CSM.
Jonas Staal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-03-25 12:54:08 UTC
Czeris wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Shocked

With all the various changes and nerfs that's been done to Exploration it seems to me that CCP doesn't want it to be profitable, just time consuming.

Evil



DMC



You should run for CSM.


If it isn't profitable, you are doing something wrong...

While it might not be the gold-mine it was before, I'm fairly sure (out of personal experience and what I hear left and right) that exploration is still a fairly lucerative business overall.

Obviously, certain aspects aren't, like high sec radar / relic sites or ded1/10 or ded2/10. Then again, L1 missions aren't very profitable either.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#18 - 2014-03-25 13:56:52 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Shocked
With all the various changes and nerfs that's been done to Exploration it seems to me that CCP doesn't want it to be profitable, just time consuming.
Evil


But this complex hasn't changed in 5+ years, aside from having its loot table buffed to cruiser A-type when they filled out the DED complex list.

Plus, the major complaint I hear from Odyssey-haters seems to be that its too easy and loot values are low, not that it takes too long. Combat ships are stronger than ever before, scanning is faster than ever before, hacking/relics are faster than before.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Czeris
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-03-25 14:03:08 UTC
Batelle wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Shocked
With all the various changes and nerfs that's been done to Exploration it seems to me that CCP doesn't want it to be profitable, just time consuming.
Evil


But this complex hasn't changed in 5+ years, aside from having its loot table buffed to cruiser A-type when they filled out the DED complex list.

Plus, the major complaint I hear from Odyssey-haters seems to be that its too easy and loot values are low, not that it takes too long. Combat ships are stronger than ever before, scanning is faster than ever before, hacking/relics are faster than before.


But, but, but you can't reset escalation timers any more and I have a deep seated belief unsupported by facts that they nerfed the loot! The low prices and huge amounts of exploration loot on the market mean nothing!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#20 - 2014-03-25 14:25:03 UTC
Czeris wrote:

But, but, but you can't reset escalation timers any more and I have a deep seated belief unsupported by facts that they nerfed the loot! The low prices and huge amounts of exploration loot on the market mean nothing!


Well, I am legit pissed about escalation timers. As for loot nerfs, its entirely possible that the drop rates are dynamic based on outside factors rather than each looting event being an identical independent roll. But either way I tell people to suck it up when they ask about drop rates.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.