Market Discussions

It's not a question of guarantees, but rather probabilities and psychology.

Say I have a single fed navy mag stab that I bought for 93 mill, there's a thick wedge of orders at 99 mill, and I'm only able to log on and adjust my sell order for that single mag stab once a day at euro prime time, and my market is Jita. I can 0.01 ISK, and probably have that order beaten in a matter of seconds. Or I can throw it up as a lone order at 97 mill. What will the other active traders think? Those operating in the same circumstances as me may decide to 0.01 ISK me, but these kinds of traders typically don't have a huge amount of volume to shift. Someone with a larger margin to shift, who is able to check the market every 30 minutes or less, will happily ignore my order, knowing that a couple of hundred of that item trade hands per day and so feeling fairly confident that a few orders down at 97 mill will get cleared out by buyers within an hour or two. If it turns out an hour or two later that those mag stabs at the lower price point are not shifting, and more and more people are taking the plunge and eating the lower margin, then the others who have been holding out may join in, but their first response will probably be to just wait it out - or if the undercut is sufficiently big, go ahead and buy it themselves for the margin and protection of their own orders.

At least, having played both sides in this scenario, that's my thought process in each case.

And that's what I sated earlier. If it's a single item of even a few, you might be able to do that and some traders might ignore that item. But that in no way means that 0.01isking should never be used. It's about choosing the right tool for the job. People that call it "mindless 0.01isking" and dismiss it as a legitimate tactic are simply impatient traders who think they can force a consumer to buy by dumping their margin.

I tend to trade in bulk more than anything else, so often 0.01ing is required in busier hubs.

But I can guarantee that I will have a smaller pool of competition. Hell even from my own personal experiences facing a deep overcut/undercut, sometimes I'll opt to just let that trader sell or procure his wares before me because the cost of being the top is too high. And if I've had those thoughts and implemented those protocols, then I know damn well that there are other traders who do the same thing.

0.01 ISK = Same number of competitors.
Deep undercut/overcut = some of those traders will bow out.
Less pool of competition = more profits for me.

How can you not agree Lucas?

It's not that I don't agree that what you are saying is correct in some circumstances. But I'm stating that it's not correct in ALL circumstances. 0.01 isk changes have their place and can be equally as useful. And the way you've stated this you could say the same with 0.01.

0.01 ISK = Better margin
Deep undercut/overcut = Lower margin
Better Margin = more profits for me.

It's all about choosing which tactic to deploy for a given situation.

I'm starting to think I haven't adequately described the process of aggressive trading. So, for the point of clarity I'm going to go over what happens when I decide to start trading an item. Some of this you will already know, some however, I think you're not aware of.

Let's imagine I'm looking to invest into a new item as a Jita station trader. Now, I may not want to step into trading with this item because the 0.01ers, as you've correctly stated will simply undercut me and I'll find my wares aren't selling straight away. This is a reason for me to not want to trade that item, I may not want to wait a day (or much longer than that) for the competition to go away and allow me to make the huge ISK/hour that aggressive trading promises. The more 0.01ers there are, the longer this will take. If I do choose to undercut in this situation, everyone (including me) is making less money. This is fine, I am expecting this. I think this is where you have assumed incorrectly what the aggressive trader does next.

I do not come back a few minutes, or even hours later and make another aggressive undercut. I leave the trade be for a full day (at least) and come back to see how my competition has reacted to my presence. In the presence of an aggressive trader, the 0.01er has three options.

a) The trader believes the item is currently unprofitable and just as Yashmyn suggests in her guide, decides to sit on his stock in the hopes that the price will bounce back up again. This is best for me, bad for them, as they essentially cut themselves out of the market (at least temporarily) and allow me to make some money much faster.

b) The trader sees that the profit margin has closed and cancels his buy orders, but still wants to clear his stock, so he 0.01s me again.

c) The trader sees the smaller margin, but still thinks it's large enough to continue investing in the item, so he outbids my buy order AND undercuts my sell order.

After ~24 hours, I come back and see what everyone (at least the active ones) has done. Group A are of no concern to me, it's groups B and C I pay attention to. If the competition falls primarily into group C, I'll see lots of 0.01 undercuts and 0.01 outbids. In this case I repeat the process of aggressively undercutting and simply wait another 24 hours.

If my competition falls primarily into group B, I will see a bunch of people electing to undercut me, but few (if any) buy orders 0.01ing me. This means my competition is trying to leave this area of the market. I don't need to take any action, I simply let the 0.01ers finish their last sales and move on, leaving me with an item I get to play with (by and large) all by myself.

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Remember: I do not care that I am not always top of the list in buy/ask prices. I do not care that some trades will ocassionally go to the competition. It is not worth my time to change my order a minute amount just to be at the top of the list, I either ignore the competition or I react by making the trade less desirable for competition.

I only care that the majority of trade comes my way, so that I can make a profit while investing as little time as possible into the trade. This is the most important point and why aggressive trading is so successful. 0.01ing works by babysitting market orders, ensuring that your order is always at the top of the pile - this is important while 0.01ing otherwise another 0.01er will invariably take your place.

My point: As an 0.01er, as soon as you stop updating, your income stops. As an aggressive trader, my orders continue to make money for me long after I've left the keyboard.

And if you are not at the bottom of the sales list and have been undercut by several people, you aren't getting the majority of the trade, they are. And if you are willing to live with a margin, I can guarantee you, other traders will be willing to live with 0.01 less than that.

I've not witnessed that as being the case hard and fast though. I've deep undercut and been undercut by a 0.01isker almost immediately. I've also 0.01 undercut and come back 2 days later to find my order still at the bottom and loads sold throughout.

Not all 0.01ers stare at the market instantly updating the second they are undercut, in fact I'd bet the majority of those that do are bots. Many, like me are doing other things, then when there's a free second, quickly flick through a few orders on the quickbar hitting modify and flicking the scrollwheel occasionally. But like I say. It's not that one tactic is right and one is wrong. They are both tactics that can work at different times and deciding when to use them is the key.

There are a few. I trade in a few locations that have very little or very infrequent competition. If whilst updating my orders, and I know that I'm going to be around my PC for a few hours, and I notice that my competition hasn't updated in an hour or more, I won't deep undercut. I will update with a smallish undercut that is effectively 0.01 ISK. But only under those circumstances.

How has that made you any more money? Sure, it's generated some money sooner but it hasn't generated more. Your competition is inevitably going to undercut you again.

Remember: If you're pricing in an attempt to discourage competition, he's unlikely to come back for more once he's sold his remaining stock. You've just spent your time, however little, gaining quite literally nothing.


The ones about massive undercuts? I'd provide evidence directly, but it's easier to show you how to find your own.

In any area of the market where aggressive trading has ceased, 0.01ing activty can creep back in and when it does, it fails to react to market changes. Feel free to check out http://eve-central.com/tradetool/ and simply look for inter-regional trades that offer huge markups. Many are simply nil demand items while others are 0.01 pits.

Ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under preasure, be careful of these so called 'experts'

Anywho I really liked the Blog +1

So this could effectively be cut down to, 0.01ing is not what you do personally. That in no way invalidates it as a valid method. Not everyone has to trade in the exact way you do.

That example was simply an example to a situation a trader could find themselves in, simplified down for ease. Maybe it was a good trade and they collided with another trade, it doesn't really matter, but dismissing it as "I'd not get there to begin with" misses the point entirely. That's like saying "how would you survive if you found yourself stuck on a desert island?" "Well I'd not get stuck on a desert island.".