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Station Trading 101

Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#21 - 2014-03-23 11:54:10 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
Sometimes you may find that a large undercut is exactly what the doctor ordered. Consumers may not be all too bothered by 1-5% price changes, but you'll draw attention to yourself with 20% changes. Hell, there have been trades where I've listed for half the price of the competition that are merrily 0.01ing each other way above a reasonable price.

Edit: I'm actually making a trade right now, selling my product for 2.3-3.0 million ISK/item but my competition are lisitng for 9,999,999.99 and 10 million. I'm not even trying to list close to their price because only one item shifts every couple of weeks at that price. I'd much rather shift one or two items per day at my price (even the one I'm asking is a massive markup).

Also, selling to other traders is a good thing. They do care about 1-5% price changes. These small shifts can easily make an item profitable and you may find them snapping the item up so they can move it to another region for sale over there.

As the price becomes more favourable, you're expanding the pool of people that will buy your wares, both traders and consumers alike.

Quote:
A regular customer will buy what he needs when he needs it as long as the price is reasonably fair. The job of a trader is to ensure they are always the next order in the queue, which means 0.01 isk is as good as any other amount.

And if the price isn't reasonably fair? Agressive undercutting works because it ensures the other party is always getting the best possible deal.
Of course a larger margin is treated differently. When you have a hold on the market and margin of hundreds of %, o course heavy undercutting will generate more buyers. But when the margin is like 8% on a fast moving item, very few customers will be caring about the price. They will buy when they buy, and whoever has the lowest order at the time wins.

Tor Norman wrote:
What if everyone 0.01s? It's hilarious when a price hasn't reacted to a market change and a bunch of idiots are 0.01ing each other at a price way above what most people consider to be acceptable. They're literally making something like 1 million ISK/hour on such trades yet there they sit, still mindlessly 0.01ing.

I'd much rather risk some of my trades dropping to unprofitable levels, but make a killing overall than waste my time with such trades.
But then if you drop the price and they 0.01 you anyway, you've still made nothing and you have to react again.

Tor Norman wrote:
I don't want to increase the longevity of the margin! Remember, by simply 0.01ing on a large profit margin, I'm leaving the door open, not only for the existing traders to keep 0.01ing me in response, but for new traders to join the fray. I don't want to sit on a trade, forced to update every 5 minutes because of the ridiculous amounts of competition that aren't leaving because the profit margin is too attractive. I want to list my item for sale, thenleave for a day or so, letting the money roll in on its own.
But we're nto just talking about huge margins that attract everyone. There is absolutely no reason to nuke your margin if you can't guarantee you'll both remain the lowest and attract more customers. I'm not saying aggressive undercutting is never required, but stating that 0.01ing is always a bad idea is just plain wrong, especially when you are dealing in bulk.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Minerva Bian
Starchild Industries
#22 - 2014-03-23 12:19:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
]But then if you drop the price and they 0.01 you anyway, you've still made nothing and you have to react again.There is absolutely no reason to nuke your margin if you can't guarantee you'll both remain the lowest and attract more customers.


It's not a question of guarantees, but rather probabilities and psychology.

Say I have a single fed navy mag stab that I bought for 93 mill, there's a thick wedge of orders at 99 mill, and I'm only able to log on and adjust my sell order for that single mag stab once a day at euro prime time, and my market is Jita. I can 0.01 ISK, and probably have that order beaten in a matter of seconds. Or I can throw it up as a lone order at 97 mill. What will the other active traders think? Those operating in the same circumstances as me may decide to 0.01 ISK me, but these kinds of traders typically don't have a huge amount of volume to shift. Someone with a larger margin to shift, who is able to check the market every 30 minutes or less, will happily ignore my order, knowing that a couple of hundred of that item trade hands per day and so feeling fairly confident that a few orders down at 97 mill will get cleared out by buyers within an hour or two. If it turns out an hour or two later that those mag stabs at the lower price point are not shifting, and more and more people are taking the plunge and eating the lower margin, then the others who have been holding out may join in, but their first response will probably be to just wait it out - or if the undercut is sufficiently big, go ahead and buy it themselves for the margin and protection of their own orders.

At least, having played both sides in this scenario, that's my thought process in each case.
WaterMarks
The Keywork
#23 - 2014-03-23 12:20:42 UTC
just wanted to point out jita compaired to other hubs is a whole diffrent game.
u can avoid the .01 game in other hubs but jitas full of zombies...meaning if i drop a large amount to get a quik sale and decent profit some one will just .01 me. if your ganna trade in jita your playing the .01 game.

-Fly Reckless-

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#24 - 2014-03-23 12:31:34 UTC
Minerva Bian wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
]But then if you drop the price and they 0.01 you anyway, you've still made nothing and you have to react again.There is absolutely no reason to nuke your margin if you can't guarantee you'll both remain the lowest and attract more customers.


It's not a question of guarantees, but rather probabilities and psychology.

Say I have a single fed navy mag stab that I bought for 93 mill, there's a thick wedge of orders at 99 mill, and I'm only able to log on and adjust my sell order for that single mag stab once a day at euro prime time, and my market is Jita. I can 0.01 ISK, and probably have that order beaten in a matter of seconds. Or I can throw it up as a lone order at 97 mill. What will the other active traders think? Those operating in the same circumstances as me may decide to 0.01 ISK me, but these kinds of traders typically don't have a huge amount of volume to shift. Someone with a larger margin to shift, who is able to check the market every 30 minutes or less, will happily ignore my order, knowing that a couple of hundred of that item trade hands per day and so feeling fairly confident that a few orders down at 97 mill will get cleared out by buyers within an hour or two. If it turns out an hour or two later that those mag stabs at the lower price point are not shifting, and more and more people are taking the plunge and eating the lower margin, then the others who have been holding out may join in, but their first response will probably be to just wait it out - or if the undercut is sufficiently big, go ahead and buy it themselves for the margin and protection of their own orders.

At least, having played both sides in this scenario, that's my thought process in each case.
And that's what I sated earlier. If it's a single item of even a few, you might be able to do that and some traders might ignore that item. But that in no way means that 0.01isking should never be used. It's about choosing the right tool for the job. People that call it "mindless 0.01isking" and dismiss it as a legitimate tactic are simply impatient traders who think they can force a consumer to buy by dumping their margin.

I tend to trade in bulk more than anything else, so often 0.01ing is required in busier hubs.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Minerva Bian
Starchild Industries
#25 - 2014-03-23 12:42:57 UTC
It certainly has its uses, depending on your playstyle. Perhaps for those you're responding to it has no place in their trading style. I will happily 0.01 ISK* if I'm active and able to update orders over the course of a few hours. If I'm afk for a weekend and want to shift at least something, I'll probably do several % undercuts as long as it still leaves me with some margin.

* I rarely actually precisely 0.01 ISK but for a couple of reasons: it's often slower to 0.01 ISK someone than just spam mousewheel or replace a more significant figure, and spending an extra second or two per order when updating hundreds makes a big difference to how quickly I get burnt out on active order pvp. Also on active products you frequently find someone else has 0.01 ISKed a second before you.
Axel FoIey
Audacious Entrepreneurial Businesspersons Academy
#26 - 2014-03-23 14:39:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
...But we're nto just talking about huge margins that attract everyone. There is absolutely no reason to nuke your margin if you can't guarantee you'll both remain the lowest and attract more customers...


But I can guarantee that I will have a smaller pool of competition. Hell even from my own personal experiences facing a deep overcut/undercut, sometimes I'll opt to just let that trader sell or procure his wares before me because the cost of being the top is too high. And if I've had those thoughts and implemented those protocols, then I know damn well that there are other traders who do the same thing.

0.01 ISK = Same number of competitors.
Deep undercut/overcut = some of those traders will bow out.
Less pool of competition = more profits for me.

How can you not agree Lucas?
Herzav
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-03-23 16:10:09 UTC
This thread has some nice tidbits into the mind of the 0.01ISK VS Deep Undercut wars.
I wish the info could be stickied but I don't think its gonna happen :/

OP should add this into her/his guide as well :)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#28 - 2014-03-23 16:25:36 UTC
Axel FoIey wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
...But we're nto just talking about huge margins that attract everyone. There is absolutely no reason to nuke your margin if you can't guarantee you'll both remain the lowest and attract more customers...


But I can guarantee that I will have a smaller pool of competition. Hell even from my own personal experiences facing a deep overcut/undercut, sometimes I'll opt to just let that trader sell or procure his wares before me because the cost of being the top is too high. And if I've had those thoughts and implemented those protocols, then I know damn well that there are other traders who do the same thing.

0.01 ISK = Same number of competitors.
Deep undercut/overcut = some of those traders will bow out.
Less pool of competition = more profits for me.

How can you not agree Lucas?
It's not that I don't agree that what you are saying is correct in some circumstances. But I'm stating that it's not correct in ALL circumstances. 0.01 isk changes have their place and can be equally as useful. And the way you've stated this you could say the same with 0.01.

0.01 ISK = Better margin
Deep undercut/overcut = Lower margin
Better Margin = more profits for me.

It's all about choosing which tactic to deploy for a given situation.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#29 - 2014-03-23 18:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
The problem I have with the 0.01/deep undercut argument is that everything said is just anecdotal evidence bolstered by confirmation bias. I think there's a place for both methods, and I have employed both with my contract trading. The little market trading I do is usually 0.01 ISK once per week for most items, a lot more often with expensive items such as faction battleships, officer mods, etc.

And now for my anecdotal experiences. I've tried deep undercutting on certain overpriced officer mods with decent success, though there weren't many people trading those at the time. Deep undercutting didn't help me when trying to sell the less popular T2 Large/Capital Rigs which have buy orders well below manufacturing cost anyway. All I managed to do on the rigs was drop the sell order price to build cost for a month or so until finally someone wanted a T2 Large Anti-whatever rig or T2 Capital Sentry Damage rig. Deep undercutting can sometimes work on researched BPOs, but it feels like unless you get lucky with a quick sale, other active traders will follow suit, recreating their contract (at the cost of their deposit) to undercut you. I could waffle on, but in the end it's really a personal preference with no one one size fits all response to different situations.
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-03-23 23:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Norman
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tor Norman wrote:
I'd much rather risk some of my trades dropping to unprofitable levels, but make a killing overall than waste my time with such trades.
But then if you drop the price and they 0.01 you anyway, you've still made nothing and you have to react again.

I'm starting to think I haven't adequately described the process of aggressive trading. So, for the point of clarity I'm going to go over what happens when I decide to start trading an item. Some of this you will already know, some however, I think you're not aware of.

Let's imagine I'm looking to invest into a new item as a Jita station trader. Now, I may not want to step into trading with this item because the 0.01ers, as you've correctly stated will simply undercut me and I'll find my wares aren't selling straight away. This is a reason for me to not want to trade that item, I may not want to wait a day (or much longer than that) for the competition to go away and allow me to make the huge ISK/hour that aggressive trading promises. The more 0.01ers there are, the longer this will take. If I do choose to undercut in this situation, everyone (including me) is making less money. This is fine, I am expecting this. I think this is where you have assumed incorrectly what the aggressive trader does next.

I do not come back a few minutes, or even hours later and make another aggressive undercut. I leave the trade be for a full day (at least) and come back to see how my competition has reacted to my presence. In the presence of an aggressive trader, the 0.01er has three options.

a) The trader believes the item is currently unprofitable and just as Yashmyn suggests in her guide, decides to sit on his stock in the hopes that the price will bounce back up again. This is best for me, bad for them, as they essentially cut themselves out of the market (at least temporarily) and allow me to make some money much faster.

b) The trader sees that the profit margin has closed and cancels his buy orders, but still wants to clear his stock, so he 0.01s me again.

c) The trader sees the smaller margin, but still thinks it's large enough to continue investing in the item, so he outbids my buy order AND undercuts my sell order.

After ~24 hours, I come back and see what everyone (at least the active ones) has done. Group A are of no concern to me, it's groups B and C I pay attention to. If the competition falls primarily into group C, I'll see lots of 0.01 undercuts and 0.01 outbids. In this case I repeat the process of aggressively undercutting and simply wait another 24 hours.

If my competition falls primarily into group B, I will see a bunch of people electing to undercut me, but few (if any) buy orders 0.01ing me. This means my competition is trying to leave this area of the market. I don't need to take any action, I simply let the 0.01ers finish their last sales and move on, leaving me with an item I get to play with (by and large) all by myself.

=====

Remember: I do not care that I am not always top of the list in buy/ask prices. I do not care that some trades will ocassionally go to the competition. It is not worth my time to change my order a minute amount just to be at the top of the list, I either ignore the competition or I react by making the trade less desirable for competition.

I only care that the majority of trade comes my way, so that I can make a profit while investing as little time as possible into the trade. This is the most important point and why aggressive trading is so successful. 0.01ing works by babysitting market orders, ensuring that your order is always at the top of the pile - this is important while 0.01ing otherwise another 0.01er will invariably take your place.

My point: As an 0.01er, as soon as you stop updating, your income stops. As an aggressive trader, my orders continue to make money for me long after I've left the keyboard.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!

Axel FoIey
Audacious Entrepreneurial Businesspersons Academy
#31 - 2014-03-24 02:10:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's not that I don't agree that what you are saying is correct in some circumstances. But I'm stating that it's not correct in ALL circumstances. 0.01 isk changes have their place and can be equally as useful. And the way you've stated this you could say the same with 0.01.

0.01 ISK = Better margin
Deep undercut/overcut = Lower margin
Better Margin = more profits for me.

It's all about choosing which tactic to deploy for a given situation.


Ok I agree with you. There are no doubt times that it is optimal to 0.01 ISK.

Tor Norman wrote:
...Expert Insight...


Perfectly said. That is the exact procedure. +1 internets to you sir.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#32 - 2014-03-25 08:38:23 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
I only care that the majority of trade comes my way, so that I can make a profit while investing as little time as possible into the trade.
And if you are not at the bottom of the sales list and have been undercut by several people, you aren't getting the majority of the trade, they are. And if you are willing to live with a margin, I can guarantee you, other traders will be willing to live with 0.01 less than that.

Tor Norman wrote:
My point: As an 0.01er, as soon as you stop updating, your income stops. As an aggressive trader, my orders continue to make money for me long after I've left the keyboard.
I've not witnessed that as being the case hard and fast though. I've deep undercut and been undercut by a 0.01isker almost immediately. I've also 0.01 undercut and come back 2 days later to find my order still at the bottom and loads sold throughout.

Not all 0.01ers stare at the market instantly updating the second they are undercut, in fact I'd bet the majority of those that do are bots. Many, like me are doing other things, then when there's a free second, quickly flick through a few orders on the quickbar hitting modify and flicking the scrollwheel occasionally. But like I say. It's not that one tactic is right and one is wrong. They are both tactics that can work at different times and deciding when to use them is the key.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-03-26 02:48:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[And if you are not at the bottom of the sales list and have been undercut by several people, you aren't getting the majority of the trade, they are.

As per my previous response, these people fall into categories B and C.

Quote:
And if you are willing to live with a margin, I can guarantee you, other traders will be willing to live with 0.01 less than that.

These people are in category C, you'll need to make another aggressive undercut.

Quote:
I've deep undercut and been undercut by a 0.01isker almost immediately.

Yes, when undercutting on a new order, 0.01ing WILL continue, I have not contested this argument. When outbidding however, there's a solid chance that the 0.01 bids will cease.

Quote:
I've also 0.01 undercut and come back 2 days later to find my order still at the bottom and loads sold throughout.

As much as I hate how passive-aggressive this statement is, it's an appropriate response: The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, sometimes the competition lets up, sometimes you make a post and a bunch of people decide to simply accept it. Sometimes the stars align and you find yourself benefitting from a lucky windful. But that's what those situations are: luck. They're not representative of the larger picture.

Quote:
It's not that one tactic is right and one is wrong. They are both tactics that can work at different times and deciding when to use them is the key.

Um. I'm not so sure. Honestly I hadn't put much thought into this and so haven't really addressed the claim that sometimes 0.01ing is beneficial. The thing is, now that I've thought about it for a couple of days, I honestly can't envision any situation where I can say that 0.01ing was a worthwhile move on my part. Even if I were trading tritanium, I can't think of a situation where I'd want to play the 0.01 game. Every other approach, no matter what kind of trade activity I'm into just doesn't seem to benefit from 0.01ing to tempt me from much more efficient aggressive bidding.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!

Axel FoIey
Audacious Entrepreneurial Businesspersons Academy
#34 - 2014-03-26 02:56:28 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

It's not that one tactic is right and one is wrong. They are both tactics that can work at different times and deciding when to use them is the key.

Um. I'm not so sure. Honestly I hadn't put much thought into this and so haven't really addressed the claim that sometimes 0.01ing is beneficial. The thing is, now that I've thought about it for a couple of days, I honestly can't envision any situation where I can say that 0.01ing was a worthwhile move on my part. Even if I were trading tritanium, I can't think of a situation where I'd want to play the 0.01 game. Every other approach, no matter what kind of trade activity I'm into just doesn't seem to benefit from 0.01ing to tempt me from much more efficient aggressive bidding.


There are a few. I trade in a few locations that have very little or very infrequent competition. If whilst updating my orders, and I know that I'm going to be around my PC for a few hours, and I notice that my competition hasn't updated in an hour or more, I won't deep undercut. I will update with a smallish undercut that is effectively 0.01 ISK. But only under those circumstances.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#35 - 2014-03-26 13:53:17 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:

Quote:
I've also 0.01 undercut and come back 2 days later to find my order still at the bottom and loads sold throughout.

As much as I hate how passive-aggressive this statement is, it's an appropriate response: The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, sometimes the competition lets up, sometimes you make a post and a bunch of people decide to simply accept it. Sometimes the stars align and you find yourself benefitting from a lucky windful. But that's what those situations are: luck. They're not representative of the larger picture.


How are your anecdotes any more factual?
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-03-27 12:40:30 UTC
Axel FoIey wrote:
Tor Norman wrote:
Every other approach, no matter what kind of trade activity I'm into just doesn't seem to benefit from 0.01ing to tempt me from much more efficient aggressive bidding.


There are a few. I trade in a few locations that have very little or very infrequent competition. If whilst updating my orders, and I know that I'm going to be around my PC for a few hours, and I notice that my competition hasn't updated in an hour or more, I won't deep undercut. I will update with a smallish undercut that is effectively 0.01 ISK. But only under those circumstances.

How has that made you any more money? Sure, it's generated some money sooner but it hasn't generated more. Your competition is inevitably going to undercut you again.

Remember: If you're pricing in an attempt to discourage competition, he's unlikely to come back for more once he's sold his remaining stock. You've just spent your time, however little, gaining quite literally nothing.

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
How are your anecdotes any more factual?

The ones about massive undercuts? I'd provide evidence directly, but it's easier to show you how to find your own.

In any area of the market where aggressive trading has ceased, 0.01ing activty can creep back in and when it does, it fails to react to market changes. Feel free to check out http://eve-central.com/tradetool/ and simply look for inter-regional trades that offer huge markups. Many are simply nil demand items while others are 0.01 pits.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#37 - 2014-03-27 14:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Tor Norman wrote:
Um. I'm not so sure. Honestly I hadn't put much thought into this and so haven't really addressed the claim that sometimes 0.01ing is beneficial. The thing is, now that I've thought about it for a couple of days, I honestly can't envision any situation where I can say that 0.01ing was a worthwhile move on my part. Even if I were trading tritanium, I can't think of a situation where I'd want to play the 0.01 game. Every other approach, no matter what kind of trade activity I'm into just doesn't seem to benefit from 0.01ing to tempt me from much more efficient aggressive bidding.
See the problem here is with "I've thought about it" and "I honestly can't envision any situation where I can say that 0.01ing was a worthwhile move on my part". You can't. That doesn't mean other can't. There are thousands of systems to trade in, thousands of items and a multitude of methods to trade. I can on many occasions find times when 0.01ing is going to benefit me. Primarily it's on items where you are going to be fighting competition anyway, regardless of margin, or items where there is little to no direct competition and orders are infrequently reviewed. I generally deal in bulk, so often I want to keep margins up as long as possible too, to keep it more profitable while everything sells.

And bear in mind I'm not saying that your method is wrong. I'm just saying you can't dismiss an entire method as useless just because you personally can't find a use for it.
Tor Norman wrote:
How has that made you any more money? Sure, it's generated some money sooner but it hasn't generated more. Your competition is inevitably going to undercut you again.

Remember: If you're pricing in an attempt to discourage competition, he's unlikely to come back for more once he's sold his remaining stock. You've just spent your time, however little, gaining quite literally nothing.
It's made more money as it's a higher margin, and a higher margin means more profit per item, whichever way you cut it.

If the competition wants to get rid of his stock to the same extent you do and you have a reasonable amount of items (so more than a couple so it's clear your not a one off seller), then competition will undercut regardless of the depth of the undercut. So you aren't guaranteed more exposure with a deeper cut. Again, it's about selecting the method for the individual scenario.


EDIT: Let's take an example. If we're both selling item X, which moves 20 a day, and we each have say 200 of them. They cost 100m. Yours are on the market for 110m, mine are 115m.

Scenario A: Say I undercut you to 105m, what would you do to your price? Would you undercut or would you leave them?

Scenario B: Say I undercut you to 109.99m instead, what would you do to your price? Would you undercut or would you leave them?

By your previously stated reasoning, in both scenarios you would undercut so you can shift your profit, as it's about shifting your product, not preserving margins right? So in that situation, there is absolutely no reason for me to have chosen Scenario A, since regardless of which option I took, you would have undercut me, so my exposure time would have been the same in both Scenarios, however in Scenario B I'd have a larger margin, so for every 1 item sold I'm making the equivalent profit of selling 2 items in Scenario A. This means I only need ~50% of the exposure to make the same profit.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Bobble Hat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-03-27 15:10:06 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
...Expert Insight...


Ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under preasure, be careful of these so called 'experts'

Anywho I really liked the Blog +1

Marcus Gord wrote: Bobble, please get out of my head... Bobble Hat wrote: But it's so nice and warm in here wiggles

Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-03-27 16:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Norman
Lucas Kell wrote:
See the problem here is with "I've thought about it" and "I honestly can't envision any situation where I can say that 0.01ing was a worthwhile move on my part". You can't. That doesn't mean other can't.

I know. It was an appeal to others to help me see what scenario exists where 0.01ing the optimal strategy, not a denial of any such situation.

The only situation I can consider where 0.0ing is the "best" strategy is where the only competition is inactive and as luck would have it, their remaining market orders happen to be at the appropriate level. In this situation, an aggressive undercut would neither encourage more sales and as I have no active competition to worry about, a large undercut is genuinely pointless.

That's a pretty niche situation, I feel. Certainly not common enough to warrant a guide that states there's no point in outbidding/undercutting more than 0.01.

Quote:
It's made more money as it's a higher margin, and a higher margin means more profit per item, whichever way you cut it.

Is it? Remember: I've listed my goods precisely because I'm hoping my competition will leave once they've finished clearing their current stock. Once my competition is gone, I have no reason to undercut any further, hence I'm not actually selling for a higher profit by 0.01ing than simply waiting for my competition to finish.

Quote:
If the competition wants to get rid of his stock to the same extent you do and you have a reasonable amount of items (so more than a couple so it's clear your not a one off seller), then competition will undercut regardless of the depth of the undercut.

I know. I have stated this several times.

Quote:
So you aren't guaranteed more exposure with a deeper cut.

Not straight away. Once their market orders complete, I'm hoping to have a larger market share.

Quote:
EDIT: Let's take an example. If we're both selling item X, which moves 20 a day, and we each have say 200 of them.

There's no point in going further, I wouldn't invest in such a trade. I choose trades, not just because of the potential profit, but on how much competition there is. Remember: I want to spend as little time maintaining my orders as possible. My method is to aggressively undercut, making my competition want to leave, then letting them clear their remaining stock. If I enter a market, knowing that I'll have to wait 10 days for my product to start selling, I'll look elsewhere, because there's always another window of opportunity to exploit, elsewhere.

Note: 10 days is an arbitrary number that depends on the state of the market. The more competition, the longer I'll have to be willing to wait for an investment to begin paying off.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#40 - 2014-03-27 17:54:56 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
There's no point in going further, I wouldn't invest in such a trade. I choose trades, not just because of the potential profit, but on how much competition there is. Remember: I want to spend as little time maintaining my orders as possible. My method is to aggressively undercut, making my competition want to leave, then letting them clear their remaining stock. If I enter a market, knowing that I'll have to wait 10 days for my product to start selling, I'll look elsewhere, because there's always another window of opportunity to exploit, elsewhere.

Note: 10 days is an arbitrary number that depends on the state of the market. The more competition, the longer I'll have to be willing to wait for an investment to begin paying off.
So this could effectively be cut down to, 0.01ing is not what you do personally. That in no way invalidates it as a valid method. Not everyone has to trade in the exact way you do.

That example was simply an example to a situation a trader could find themselves in, simplified down for ease. Maybe it was a good trade and they collided with another trade, it doesn't really matter, but dismissing it as "I'd not get there to begin with" misses the point entirely. That's like saying "how would you survive if you found yourself stuck on a desert island?" "Well I'd not get stuck on a desert island.".

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