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Corax Damage Math Questions

Author
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1 - 2014-03-21 00:32:52 UTC
My FW Corax has the following options for ammo:

Caldari Navy Scourge-
Explosion Velocity - 402 m/s
Explosion Radius - 28 m
214 DPS and 1367 Alpha

Scourge Fury-
Explosion Velocity - 338 m/s
Explosion Radius - 49 m
261 DPS and 1669 Alpha

Scourge Precision-
Explosion Velocity - 482 m/s
Explosion Radius - 18 m
187 DPS and 1194 Alpha

I have noticed that if I slap two target painters onto the Corax and overheated them I essentially double the target's sig radius. A Rifter would go from 32 m to 64 m. A 22m ship becomes 44m. Etc.

My two questions:
Can I get away with using Fury as my primary ammo?
Is there any reason to put Precisions in my cargo hold?
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#2 - 2014-03-21 00:45:35 UTC
Only thing precisions might help you with would be popping drones I would think. Maybe give a buddy a couple of mill and have him buy a few tech 1 frigs to try out different ammo vs base, ab, and MWD speeds and see what results you get.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3 - 2014-03-21 13:16:22 UTC
I'm assuming all lvl 5 pilots on both sides and using generic fits:

Against an MWD Rifter a Corax will do full damage when using T1 or faction ammo so there's no point using Precision. Fury will be unwieldy whatever you try to do even when you use painters or rigors, so technically yes fury can do more dps but you have to fck up your fit so drastically it's just not a realistic strategy.

Against an AB Rifter your precision loaded Corax will do close to full damage even without the use of painters or rigor rigs (you're like 10% under max dps) and thus using painters or rigors won't be worth the wasted slots.


result: Don't bother with painters or rigor rigs, your LML Corax will do just fine assuming you use Faction or Precision based on the speed mod that Rifter uses.


Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4 - 2014-03-21 14:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
The way I see it, Corax's fury LM have a faster explosion velocity than regular CN LM, the only difference then is signature radius/explosion radius.
Hence, with target painters, your fury LM should apply their dps as well as regular CN LM would do.
Hence, I'd say you can go with them as your regular ammo, because it will be more effective than a regular setup on a regular ship.

Yet, you can consider the most effective ammo for the Corax itself, but this question is more complex, because it depend upon the fit but moreover it depend upon the average target you will shoot or, depending on your will, the worst case you need to deal with your regular ammo.

Also, keep in mind when testing that any minmatar ship is a worst case scenario for damage application (amarr ship are slower, gallente/caldari are slower AND larger).

Seeing the stats you show, I'd say a Corax fury LM with one TP will be as effective as another ship CN LM without TP, but this intuition don't consider the DRF of fury, but this one could be offset by the overload of the TP.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5 - 2014-03-21 14:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
seeing the stats you show, I'd say a Corax fury LM with one TP will be as effective as another ship CN LM without TP, but this intuition don't consider the DRM of fury, but this one could be offset by the overload of the TP.


That's not correct, Fury + 1 overheated painter does less damage than faction + 0 painters to both MWD as AB Rifters.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6 - 2014-03-21 15:12:22 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
seeing the stats you show, I'd say a Corax fury LM with one TP will be as effective as another ship CN LM without TP, but this intuition don't consider the DRM of fury, but this one could be offset by the overload of the TP.


That's not correct, Fury + 1 overheated painter does less damage than faction + 0 painters to both MWD as AB Rifters.

Rifter. What about about anything else ? Also, I was talking about CN LM on another ship than the Corax. My mistake if you're still right, that's the DRF issue.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#7 - 2014-03-21 15:17:29 UTC
Use fury missiles only against larger targets, and then only when they are tackled properly. For everything else, CN will fit the bill better, with precision becoming good against inties and drones.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#8 - 2014-03-21 15:30:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
seeing the stats you show, I'd say a Corax fury LM with one TP will be as effective as another ship CN LM without TP, but this intuition don't consider the DRM of fury, but this one could be offset by the overload of the TP.


That's not correct, Fury + 1 overheated painter does less damage than faction + 0 painters to both MWD as AB Rifters.

Rifter. What about about anything else ? Also, I was talking about CN LM on another ship than the Corax. My mistake if you're still right, that's the DRF issue.


Rifter is quite fast with low sig radius compared to other similar frigs. Tackle frigs have smaller sig radius while being even faster ans as such using fury generally makes no sense against frigs. Two painters would help but it's just not worth losing 2 midslots for it.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#9 - 2014-03-21 19:27:49 UTC
The Corax is pretty unique due to it's explosion velocity bonus. The Fury missiles actually have a better explosion velocity then faction missiles would on a Talwar. It comes down to the sig radius. Here's a sample of my usual fit:

Corax

The IFFA is kind of silly and I'm experimenting with other fits. It's a relatively cheap ship so I'm sure I can experiment without losing a fortune.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#10 - 2014-03-21 21:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
You could swap the fit and gain ~20% EHP while losing ~20% dps, but at the same time not have to use a 605 but instead a much cheaper eg-603 and it would allow for an F85. Not sure if the swap is useful in your case seeing as you never seem to lose your pod.

[Corax, test]
Internal Force Field Array I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Warp Disruptor I
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script

Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I



Or assuming you run CA-1&2 + a 603 you could go for this, again slight more ehp, slightly less dps but much cheaper fit.

[Corax, test 2]
F85 Peripheral Damage System I
Ballistic Control System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I




OR, as a simple improvement over your fit use this, slightly more EHP with same dps at a slightly lower cost. I'm pretty much assuming here the sebo is there as a "low cpu mid slot" thing than a tactical necessity.


[Corax, test 2]
Internal Force Field Array I
Ballistic Control System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#11 - 2014-03-22 04:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
My low sec missile clone runs the geno 1&2 as well as the 605 CPU efficiency. (705 missile bombardment, 805 guided missile precision, 905 target navigation prediction, 1005 rapid launch) I like to hit things really hard if a can. Smile

Your fits are solid. I do use the sensor booster due to low CPU. I do like it though as it comes in useful against the occasional SD Kiter and allows me to start shooting at 66km rather then 56km.

I used this today:

High:
LML II x 7
Mid:
Limited MWD
PWNG Target Painters x 2
Faint Warp Disruptor
Low:
BCU II x 2
Rigs:
Ancillary Current Router
Overclock Processor
Ionic Field Projector

I tried the Fury experiment against a Jag. I hit for around 400 a salvo. I left as it wasn't enough- found out later he had a DC II and a kinetic shield rig. Extrapolating I think that means I was landing 65% of my projected alpha on target BEFORE resists. Not bad but not really much better then sticking to faction and not having such a weird fit.

I switched to faction for the rest of the day. Two target painters really seemed to make the ship hit alot harder. Quite a few wt got two and three salvo'd off the field. Again, I wish I understood the missile formula just a little bit better.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#12 - 2014-03-22 08:51:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Again, I wish I understood the missile formula just a little bit better.


You don't have to, use EFT's damage graph to figure out how stuff works against specific targets.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#13 - 2014-03-22 10:29:09 UTC
Once the target sig radius is larger than your explosion radius the formula calculates based on relative speeds and applies the drf. Since your average ab frigate does over 1000ms while burning it's not really the sig radius you havr to worry about at that point.

Try making a kiter corax that fits some flare rigs (?) to boost the explosion velocity. What I used to do when I was in fw was burn to 30km on the other side of the button and then kite from that range at advantage. If the frigate uses mwd no loss. AF then flares help keep the damage up. As it is a % bonus light missiles benefit far more than all others
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#14 - 2014-03-22 11:39:36 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Once the target sig radius is larger than your explosion radius the formula calculates based on relative speeds and applies the drf. Since your average ab frigate does over 1000ms while burning it's not really the sig radius you havr to worry about at that point.
In the missile damage formula, the explosion radius is *always* used, and it's effect on the dps is a bit higher than the explosion velocity, even when the target signature is larger than the explosion radius. Hence, rigor are always better than flare and two painters are far better than one web.

The problem with EFT and all is that you still need to find either your average target or the worse target you want to engage for full dps. The second problem is that unfited ships drasticaly lower the applyed dps of missiles, because tanking rigs and mods rgeatly modify the target signature and speed, with prop mod on or not. The difference between fited and unfited ship can be as high as 35% (fited ship can take 35% more damage).

To correctly assess your average dps with missiles, you need a large enough set of target AND their fit. That's a lot of data to gather.

Here you can find a practical tips to assess your missile dps.

The technique is to use the minimum velocity factor which give the speed of the target at which the damage start falling. Unfortunately the chart is outdated, but you can calculate the numbers for your case easily. The mvf is calculated as follow :
target signature * explosion velocity / explosion radius = maximum target velocity for 100% damage.

Another thing to keep in mind is the Damage Reduction Factor : this parameter means that fury missiles will see their damage falling faster than CN missiles when speed limits damage.