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Mineral Reprocession Changes and Capital Production

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#41 - 2014-03-21 16:33:23 UTC
350125GO wrote:
Though on other sub-forums the fear is that this will further enrich the goons, but I'm not so sure about that.
If you look on the other forums, everything will further enrich the goons. If CCP stated that they were going to take all of the assets owned by the goons and delete them, people would still complain that somehow this is helping the goons. People are stupid. Angry people more so.

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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#42 - 2014-03-21 16:42:59 UTC
350125GO wrote:
if you don't want to change your methods to continue doing it in low sec then tough. Everyone in the game constantly has to re-shift the way they do things due to changes.

Absolutely.

350125GO wrote:
null sec is empty; if this moves corps to null then it's good

I do agree, but low-sec is fairly empty too. That said, this change will probably add more content to low-sec than it removes.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#43 - 2014-03-21 16:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Bad Bobby wrote:
350125GO wrote:
Doesn't this just mean the low-sec cap producers will have to shift reprocessing to POS?

That would involve several times more work that the current approach to low-sec cap producing. As a means of making isk, it will still be viable. As a means of making isk without significant effort, it will no longer be viable.


Out of all the outposts in Deklien, Tribute, Vale, and Providence, there is only ONE Tier 2 Minmatar Outpost. There are NO tier 3 outposts. While the mythical white whale exists somewhere, most manufacturers will be competing against 53% refine rates at nullsec stations. A POS will provide a better 54% (and you don't need the skills and implants to use it at max efficiency).

Now, the effort of moving compressed ore to/from a POS/Station to refine it might not be worth your efforts.

So, how much time will this take?

(numbers pulled from web based off ME100 Components and ME2 Cap BPO).
Archon
Tritanium - 51,862,799
Pyerite - 12,693,877
Mexallon - 4,715,601
Isogen - 740,572
Nocxium - 209,776
Zydrine - 37,652
Megacyte - 16,177

Not wanting to put in much work, I'll simply assume only compressed highsec ores are readily available. So, I'll ship the Nocx, Zydrine, and Megacyte as minerals (taking up 3k m3).
The rest of the minerals will be compressed in:
61 Kernite (1500 m3),
120 Plagiocase (6400 m3),
46 Scordite (9100 m3), and
66 Veldespar (17.5k m3)

One JF can still hold the compressed ores for 9 Archons. Moving the Ores to a POS and the minerals back will take some time, and leaves you potentially vulnerable, but this time can be minimized using batch jobs (setup a POS twice/month, refine all your stuff using about 2 hrs to do enough for a while, then take down the POS and produce).

*edit* Pay someone the difference between 53 and 54 % refines, and they can take on the refining job. As long as you are doing it in batches (10 or more caps), they should be happy with the difference and you'll enjoy the same yield as 99% of nullsec.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#44 - 2014-03-21 17:14:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Out of all the outposts in Deklien, Tribute, Vale, and Providence, there is only ONE Tier 2 Minmatar Outpost. There are NO tier 3 outposts. While the mythical white whale exists somewhere, most manufacturers will be competing against 53% refine rates at nullsec stations. A POS will provide a better 54% (and you don't need the skills and implants to use it at max efficiency). ...

There currently are few tier 3 outposts because you don't need a tier 3 outpost to get perfect refining. When it becomes worthwile to uprade to tier 3 people will do it.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#45 - 2014-03-21 17:26:00 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Now, the effort of moving compressed ore to/from a POS/Station to refine it might not be worth your efforts.

Making those 9 Archons is going to require something in the region of 14 extra freighter trips.

I would be looking at something in the region of 150 freighter trips a week to maintain my current operation in low-sec. But that's something of a 1st world problem.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#46 - 2014-03-21 17:39:29 UTC
joyous the wrote:

So people risking more are going to gain better rewards? Why I never..

Adapt or die


Are you seriously stating that null sec is more dangerous than low sec?

Sure, there are backyard low sec pockets, but likewise there are in null sec as well. And more of them.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#47 - 2014-03-21 17:43:15 UTC
350125GO wrote:
.
Though on other sub-forums the fear is that this will further enrich the goons, but I'm not so sure about that.


Well, they are the changes mandators and most strenuous supporters since a long time.
Since they are all but stupid, this means they'll benefit. A lot.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#48 - 2014-03-21 19:01:51 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Out of all the outposts in Deklien, Tribute, Vale, and Providence, there is only ONE Tier 2 Minmatar Outpost. There are NO tier 3 outposts. While the mythical white whale exists somewhere, most manufacturers will be competing against 53% refine rates at nullsec stations. A POS will provide a better 54% (and you don't need the skills and implants to use it at max efficiency). ...

There currently are few tier 3 outposts because you don't need a tier 3 outpost to get perfect refining. When it becomes worthwile to uprade to tier 3 people will do it.


Fair enough...

Something yall lowsec producers also need to consider:

The minmatar outpost only has FIVE manufacturing lines. While Tier 2 and Tier 3 upgrades includes secondary "upgrades", they will still have a maximum of 15 lines at Tier 3 (if their primary upgrading the refinery).

Realistically, that means your nullsec competitors have to freighter those 15 freighter loads to a POS or to another system if they want to maintain your level of production.

The Factory Outposts will normally have the same exact refine as your lowsec outposts (until they start upgrading the refineries there to 52, 52, and 57% base refines).

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#49 - 2014-03-21 19:13:35 UTC
One benefit for producers that I've not seen mentioned:

you won't need to use up any production lines to do ore compression. Just shipping time.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#50 - 2014-03-21 19:26:01 UTC
What im more curious about is what will happen to titan/super production. Right now it doesnt cost much in highsec manufacturing slots and jf fuel to move all the minerals for a titan to any part of 0.0. But with these changes there will be huge waste even in a fully upgraded minmatar station. Titan prices wont be effected as much because the margins are high enough, but super profit margins suck as is.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#51 - 2014-03-21 19:29:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The minmatar outpost only has FIVE manufacturing lines. While Tier 2 and Tier 3 upgrades includes secondary "upgrades", they will still have a maximum of 15 lines at Tier 3 (if their primary upgrading the refinery).

Great init.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#52 - 2014-03-21 19:34:59 UTC
Razor Rocker wrote:
But with these changes there will be huge waste even in a fully upgraded minmatar station.

The increased waste will be cancelled out by the increased mineral content.

The increased yield from a fully upgraded minmatar station will actually result in less ore being consumed in the production of a supercapital.

At leasts that's how I read it.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#53 - 2014-03-21 19:42:15 UTC
Razor Rocker wrote:
What im more curious about is what will happen to titan/super production. Right now it doesnt cost much in highsec manufacturing slots and jf fuel to move all the minerals for a titan to any part of 0.0. But with these changes there will be huge waste even in a fully upgraded minmatar station. Titan prices wont be effected as much because the margins are high enough, but super profit margins suck as is.


No. If you cart compressed ore out to your nullsec station, you'll get more minerals for the same amount of ore compared to what you would get now with a "perfect" refine. I saw it was something like perfect skills at a fully upgraded minmatar station would give you like 114-115% yield compared to now.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#54 - 2014-03-21 20:11:15 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Razor Rocker wrote:
But with these changes there will be huge waste even in a fully upgraded minmatar station.

The increased waste will be cancelled out by the increased mineral content.

The increased yield from a fully upgraded minmatar station will actually result in less ore being consumed in the production of a supercapital.

At leasts that's how I read it.



The 72% you can get in a 50% station is equal to the 100% you can get now.

so the 86% from a fully upgraded minnie outpost is a fair bit higher.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-03-21 20:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
Ore and Ice Refining: Advertised percent | amount of new ore/ice vs currently received recieved | percent of max obtainable (Player Null = 100%)
NPC Station (with a highly skilled individual): 72.4% | 100% | 83.3%
POS High Sec: 75.3% | 104% | 86.7%
POS Low, Null, and Wormholes: 78.1% | 108% | 89.9%
Player Null Station (fully upgraded): 86.9% | 120% | 100%

Original Post

Batelle wrote:
No. If you cart compressed ore out to your nullsec station, you'll get more minerals for the same amount of ore compared to what you would get now with a "perfect" refine. I saw it was something like perfect skills at a fully upgraded minmatar station would give you like 114-115% yield compared to now.


Steve Ronuken wrote:
The 72% you can get in a 50% station is equal to the 100% you can get now.

so the 86% from a fully upgraded minnie outpost is a fair bit higher.


20% higher
Adunh Slavy
#56 - 2014-03-21 21:29:03 UTC
350125GO wrote:
... if this moves corps to null then ...



It won't.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#57 - 2014-03-22 00:46:55 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
350125GO wrote:
... if this moves corps to null then ...



It won't.


It shouldn't.

In the game advertised for its sandbox, free play, forcing people to move around to follow the canned progression path is a terrible blow to credibility.

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mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-03-22 02:56:41 UTC
A sandbox isn't a big pile of loose sand, it's sand that's contained within walls and boundaries and it's not a blow to its credibility at all to move those walls and boundaries around every once in awhile. And no one is being forced to do anything, at most

Pretty much everyone in this thread that's whining about how their free services can't compete with those in nullsec anymore is wrong, sorry. If you want to be right, try coughing up some suggestions about how to give lowsec some unique advantages of its own. And I do mean that - as I said when I summarized the blog over on TMDC, lowsec comes out of this as the redheaded stepchild of industry, where highsec has the convenience (and can without much difficulty exploit what refining advantages lowsec does have) and nullsec has the cost advantage. I'm just not certain how to fix it.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-03-22 04:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
never mind
Striker Out!!
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#60 - 2014-03-22 09:39:49 UTC
mynnna wrote:
try coughing up some suggestions about how to give lowsec some unique advantages of its own.

I've never seen low-sec as being a place short of unique advantages, but most of those advantages come directly from it's low population, plentiful underutilised resources and broken mechanics. I'm not sure there is an easy way of reconciling that with good game design.

I think those that like low-sec how it is are always going to complain about positive change, because low-sec is good for them but bad for the game. Once you know your way around low-sec it becomes a very safe place to live. Risk, effort and reward disconnect from eachother and you can make massive piles of almost risk free isk with minimal effort compared to other areas of space.

Maybe the right answer is to say "**** you" to low-sec players like me, trash low-sec and move on.