EVE General Discussion

Nerf Dinsdale

But this is false and besides the point. You are not grasping the real issue at hand here.

The market for reprocessing trash is not related to compression in anyway shape or form, except in the pre-patch incarnation where 425mm shipments had to be first manufcatured in high sec from extant materials, and then REPROCESSED in null for the minerals they require. THAT is what was silly. That you could manufacture 425mms in high, and move them to Null for not only 100% efficiency in REPROCESSING them but also with less volume required. Null entities argue this was necessary because they feel, for one reason or another, that that was better than meeting their own mineral needs from the space they have availqble to themout there.

This was indeed silly, but its the null entities prerogative to do so, since it was indeed possible. The system allowed them to ship minerals, in the form of 425mms, with reduced volume, for a 100% efficiency payout upon arrival. By all means not an unequitable solution, but definately silly.

This is no longer the case as a result of the other elements of this change, namely compression changes and higher null refinement efficiency of ores themselves. There is no longer a need for the 425mm trick. Null can compress ores for purposes of shipment, and leverage those at their own high efficiency installations as well as their own local ores.

For better or worse, the above is not the matter of dispute or the point of this thread. All speculation and derailment aside, this is unrelated to the *insignificant* additional and superfluous non-ice/ore refinmenet efficiency change. This separate issue is not at all insignificant, it infact has universal ramifications across all secs, in that it categorically reduces the base value of all refinable non-ore/ice materials EVERYWHERE. This affects both player made and looted items. The cost of production is not increased, but the value of all such items is depressed by their reduced reprocessing yield.

You are confusing two unrelated issues.

The proposed additional non-ice/ore refinement change results in a flat, universal, sec irrelevant reduction in the value of ALL refinable items such as ships and modules. A 100% efficiency was indeed silly, but the proposed change takes it to BELOW that of ice/ore refinement with no recourse to improving it based on station or sec.

Why would anyone skill into non-ice/ore refining now?
Not only will there be less refinable materials brought in from wrecks, because they are worth less and players simply wont bother to loot and transport them to market, but the base value of those refinable items themselves is depressed by the reduction in efficiency in refining them.

Net result: Nobody will bring int trash anymore. And nobody will skill non-ice/ore refinement, because not only is the market devoid of materials to refine but the value of those items is in and of itself also depressed to where if instead you bought and refined ore/ice, you would be laughing.

Do you understand what I am saying?

Unfortunately this is not "just an option to move back to null", it also creates the same problem you have percieved with compression in the reverse, the ore will not be snailed to high to get refined and mineral compressed, it will flow compressed to null, be refined and minerals snailed to high. You know how people are about "15% extra".

Not even talking about what i do care about, reprocessing and mineral compression...

The problem in general is that that the overhaul has too many goals, does not seem to achieve them, so they look just like excuses so that whenever anyone points out that goal A can hardly be achieved someone (like you? :) is able to say "but but but goal B!"

Example, intentionally a neutral one:

"104+% (old) refine from POS refineries with skills 0 does not motivate people to skill refining!"
"But but but we NEED to give POS refineries a advantage!"

Items that are manufactured by players, are valued by the materials and process required to make them.
What they refine into is a non issue as far as pricing goes.

Meta1-3 Items afaik have always had 2-3 uses
Invention Mutators
Cheap/Disposable Fitting Options
Refining

By reducing the amount of minerals recovered from the reprocessing of mission loot, it shifts the emphasis towards Mining as a source of minerals .... go figure, who'd have thought that mining was a source of minerals, *gasp, shock, the horror*

SOV space needing to either mine locally, or ship the raw ore/minerals in as ore/minerals ... I'd call that a good change as well.

Riiight.
Try not moving the goal posts as much and maybe the answer will be less “evasive". Since you can't express what's been missed, the stonewalling is all yours.

In the meantime, the simple fact of the matter remains: scrap refining obsoletes existing, purpose-built mechanics, and nothing that really matters is affected by introducing a margin (through an efficiency reduction) that give those mechanics room to breathe. If you don't want to discuss this actual issue, you don't get to accuse others of not taking any other, ill-defined, marginal, or even imagined issues into account.

You mean like people who wilfully ignore the actual reasons and logic behind a change, only to shout “no-one has provided any reasoning or logic for this change"?

Yes, the discussion becomes a bit farcical at that point…

They don't want perfect refine on modules or hulls. Get over it already. Loss is good for the game, and making mistakes and massively overproducing before tieracide should not be rewarded with perfect escape options or minerals that didn't exist before.



We are not confusing unrelated issues. CCP is defining the "processing" and "reprocessing" business in a way you don't like.



I own a near full set of gallente subcap hull BPOs + various other popular hulls. As it turns out, hulls don't compress minerals very well (and in any case it was never sensible to haul too many hulls at once because of ganking), so as a highsec producer of subcaps I had ample ballast capacity in freighter runs between hub and production line to haul minerals instead of compressed ore if it so turns out minerals are cheaper on any given day. I used to buy 3b+ of minerals in a day. Hull builders (probably largest consumers anyway) will still buy minerals.

People will still grab modules that are now worth half a million isk, and those minerals still make up the vast majority of the minerals derived from looting. ie someone ignores 10 x objects with 15k isk value of minerals (current system), and takes the meta 425mm railgun that has (current system) 1mil of minerals then they will still be bringing back most of the minerals in the new system.

Yes it will be worth less, but at the same time people playing this game (ie picking up all the reproc from all the minor mission hubs), got whole new stacks of orders they can run (for raw minerals to compress). ie you just got reasons for being able to compress or refine minerals, in lieu of reduced need for scrap metal refining. Its all fine if you (as CCP does), define the profession as covering the spectrum, instead of the one subset that you want to.

I am looking forward to the GD forum threads this summer.

…in fact, this lets them scale down—or even eliminate completely—many of the “additional materials" requirements introduced by tiercude ahead if time and without waiting for old stockpiles to be depleted. This rather simplifies things for manufacturers since we can start going back to just one single materials consumption stat.

Of course they will. People will still be bringing in salvage and it's no big step to pick up the modules. Some of those will still sell for > refine value, since they are useful modules (meta 3 and 4 usually), leaving you the stuff you normal just refine because it's too much of a pain to sell. That one small subset of the overall income is being reduced by 27%, it's not all mission income being nerfed.

Not to mention, that up until recently, half of you didn't even fetch the loot since it was a pain in the ass to do! A cheap mobile structure now automates that loot collection for you. I'd be willing to bet that the increase in loot collected due to the mobile tractor unit far outweighs the reduction in value of meta 1 and 2 modules refine values.