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PI Taxes?

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electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2011-11-30 03:31:37 UTC
I've recently updated my PI profit calculator (see signature) with the new tax rates. The rates are rather extreme, but the markets will adjust. The rate is at 10%, but if you were thinking it wouldn't be that much higher, they're 10% of entirely new numbers.

Here's the old taxes per unit for export:
P0: 0.1
P1: 0.76
P2: 9.0
P3: 600.0
P4: 50000.0

and here's the new taxes per unit for export at 10%:
P0: 0.5
P1: 50.0
P2: 900.0
P3: 7000.0
P4: 135000.0

So the new ones(at 10%) compared to the old, its really:
P0: 500%*old
P1: 6579%*old
P2: 10000%*old
P3: 1167%*old
P4: 270%*old

The new tax rates are based off of market values, then some % of them. They're not based off of the old tax rates.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2011-11-30 04:01:27 UTC
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#143 - 2011-11-30 04:10:58 UTC
pmchem wrote:
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.


Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#144 - 2011-11-30 04:23:28 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
pmchem wrote:
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.


Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.


How does this affect Smaller Corps in anyway more than Larger ones?

Uh.. get your own Customs Offices and do your own PI? ...
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2011-11-30 04:28:57 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
pmchem wrote:
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.


Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.


So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#146 - 2011-11-30 04:47:06 UTC
pmchem wrote:
No: the cost is passed on to the consumer.



Yeah, and at one point the consumer stops flying. It's called "demand destruction".
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2011-11-30 04:50:39 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
pmchem wrote:
No: the cost is passed on to the consumer.



Yeah, and at one point the consumer stops flying. It's called "demand destruction".


We heard all the same hysterical panic when POS fuels went from npc-seeded to player-produced, yet Eve's economy survived. The cost change to PI goods as a result of these tax changes will be much, much smaller than that change.

Also, I hear anyone can do PI (unlike running an airline).

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2011-11-30 04:51:01 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
pmchem wrote:
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.


Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.


So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

That's actually probably the best explanation why alot of people don't like it. The impending wave of inflation doesn't sound particularly great to me. Maybe I'm missing something. That and the fact that smaller groups are going to have more issues getting POCO's up and keeping them defended.
DeLaBu
CAF Industries
#149 - 2011-11-30 04:56:14 UTC
Expect your export costs to go up even more. Prices will go up and taxes, being a percentage of market value now, will follow.

Less people will probably bother to do PI and the prices will go up even further. Those sticking it out, will have more opportunity to make more isk, making a boring game mechanic more worth doing.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#150 - 2011-11-30 05:05:52 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
pmchem wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
pmchem wrote:
This thread is like a honeypot for people bad at economics. It's pretty awesome.

The markets will adjust to the new taxes. The tax changes secured the important future of PI in Eve.


Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.


So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.

That's actually probably the best explanation why alot of people don't like it. The impending wave of inflation doesn't sound particularly great to me. Maybe I'm missing something. That and the fact that smaller groups are going to have more issues getting POCO's up and keeping them defended.


A great wave of inflation is long.. long.. long overdue with the amount of Isk in the game, how much/many isk faucets there are, and the lack of strong Isk sinks. Say hello to a new, needed Isk sink.

I feel sorry for no one that can not survive this. This is after all, a game. And people lose at games.. oh well.

And I rather not hear a counter arguement about newbs and cost to them.. there isn't a good valid reason of this effecting T1 frigs-BSs and T1 ammo. T2 modules sure, by then 4s or null rats pad their wallets. And vets should know how to generate income in this game with ease.. exhibit A, PLEX..

There are plenty of Isk faucets..

Not enough sinks..

Inflation is long.. long.. long overdue and I welcome it. Helps I been expecting it tho Big smile

 Ume-Pro Studios
SpaceSquirrels
#151 - 2011-11-30 05:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceSquirrels
This assumes that Null will begin to move more PI product. Semi akin to minerals...people assumed more folks would mine in null due to better minerals. However that only sorta worked out. As people tend to forget that moving mass quantities over large distances well sucks... (and going from 0.0 sucks even more) And much of 0.0 production stays in 0.0. For in fact works the other way around! (Care packages for ship construction anyone?)

(actually i'd really like to see numbers on import to export ratios from high to 0.0 - 0.0 to high and low to...what the hell ever. Can that even be done?)
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2011-11-30 05:18:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
PI will scale accordingly, I have little doubt of that. It's the cost of anything PI related scaling as well that I'm not looking forward too. But eh, if this is the course it goes, so be it.


Things are too cheap in EVE, anyway. ^____^
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2011-11-30 05:21:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The impending wave of inflation doesn't sound particularly great to me. Maybe I'm missing something. That and the fact that smaller groups are going to have more issues getting POCO's up and keeping them defended.


It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.

Anyway, small groups might not get POCO exactly where they want them, but EVE is a big place and there are lots of nooks and crannies where those corporations can find a good spot. Nobody will ever get a stranglehold on low-sec/NPC-null POCOs, or at least not for many years. If a corporation really needs planets nearby and can't hold them, they can always suck it up and pay some taxes.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#154 - 2011-11-30 05:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Vio Geraci wrote:


It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.


in·fla·tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

No, it's not inflation. It's price increases.

Edit: Inappropriate part removed, CCP Phantom.
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2011-11-30 05:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Ptraci wrote:
[quote=Vio Geraci]

It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.


in·fla·tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

No, it's not inflation. It's price increases.

Would you say that these increasing costs are due to a surfeit of currency in the economy (per the inflation definition you just pasted) or would you say it's more related to the increases in the cost procuring those materials?


You didn't even read the definition you pasted, did you?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#156 - 2011-11-30 05:41:37 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Of course, the Goonies are failing to realize that this increase in PI prices will result in smaller corps finding their cost of maintaining their pos in high sec, low, whatever too expensive should the PI prices "adjust" accordingly.

Taking away people's ability to play how they want is bad for Eve.


POS fuel costs already yo-yo up and down +/- 20% over the course of a year. Some months, isotopes cost 300-400 ISK, then they cost 500-600 ISK. Some months it costs you 350M ISK to fuel that large tower, other months you pay closer to 450M ISK. So you either learn to live with that uncertainty, or build up a strategic stockpile of the fuel-components when prices are low and live off of them when prices are high. And you always include those variable costs in your profit/loss calculations and make sure that your margins can survive a 20% spike in fuel cost.

If you find the PI-sourced fuels on the market to be too expensive, then a few of your corp-members should setup a few PI harvest planets. It's not hard and they'll still give you 1-2M ISK of P1 product per day per planet. So if you have 7-10 PI harvest planets (in low/null), you've just paid for that single large POS tower's fuel bill. If that amount of effort isn't worth it to you, then you'll have to pay the market price for the fuel.
Chelone
Outside The Asylum
#157 - 2011-11-30 06:26:48 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
[quote=Ingvar Angst]If you find the PI-sourced fuels on the market to be too expensive, then a few of your corp-members should setup a few PI harvest planets. It's not hard and they'll still give you 1-2M ISK of P1 product per day per planet. So if you have 7-10 PI harvest planets (in low/null), you've just paid for that single large POS tower's fuel bill. If that amount of effort isn't worth it to you, then you'll have to pay the market price for the fuel.


Right. And if you mine the ore yourself, the ship is free.
Zleon Leigh
#158 - 2011-11-30 06:28:02 UTC
pmchem wrote:
[quote=Ingvar
So, so bad at economics. What do you think happens to airfare prices in the real world when the price of crude oil goes up over a sustained period of time? Nothing, and planes all just stop flying? No: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Producers reliant on POS can also increase their sales price and continue making profits -- and they will.

Nothing is being taken away from people. The economic value of a certain activity is being increased. In time, markets will adjust.


Cost is passed on - and some people stop flying, finding some other way to satisfy their needs.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#159 - 2011-11-30 06:39:58 UTC
Chelone wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
If that amount of effort isn't worth it to you, then you'll have to pay the market price for the fuel.


Right. And if you mine the ore yourself, the ship is free.


You missed a sentence here. If the amount of effort is not worth your while to do PI, then what right do you have to ***** about POS Fuel prices? If it is worth your while, well guess what you're entering a lucrative business venture because HighSec just got screwed.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#160 - 2011-11-30 06:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Vio Geraci wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Vio Geraci wrote:


It's not inflation, it's price increases. There's quite a difference, there.


in·fla·tion [in-fley-shuhn] noun
1. Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

Derp. No, it's not inflation. It's price increases. Hey are you American by any chance?


Would you say that these increasing costs are due to a surfeit of currency in the economy (per the inflation definition you just pasted) or would you say it's more related to the increases in the cost procuring those materials?


You didn't even read the definition you pasted, did you?


Would you say that billions of ISK sitting in people's bank accounts doing nothing is part of the economy? Or do rising prices cause people to spend more thus expanding the money supply? Oh dear oh dear. I DO understand the situation very well. Money idling in someone's wallet is not part of the economy, just like money in unsubbed accounts is not part of the economy. But when people have an excuse to shove more ISK into the system, you will see fireworks. And yes it is inflation.


Vio Geraci wrote:
I can just picture your fat, sweaty fingers gleefully hitting the keys to copy and paste that definition. In my imagination, a single trickle of sweat washes over your eyes right as you copied that text, preventing you from noticing that inflation is not, in fact, what you think it is. Nice masterstroke, pal ^____^


lol goons. I am neither fat nor sweaty but hey, I wouldn't want to dash your fantasies. By all means continue.