Wormholes

Everyone adapts, even gamers. Some current wormholers want obscene amounts of isk and they'll go to that source. Other wormholers (the majority, I think), enjoy the Eve-life that wormholes provide and the good isk to be had in them... and they won't be going anywhere. Besides, it doesn't matter what changes CCP implements, grumbling is inevitable, so they might as well implement something that makes a positive difference.


Don't confuse less roaming with less overall interaction and pvp. If groups need to start looking outside their system for isk, if higher dwellers are fielding smaller fleets, if competitive fleets are more common in lower class wormholes, then fewer roams will result in more good fights.


(Un)Fortunately, despite actual evictions due to sheer boredom being rare (as opposed to the threats themselves) and the fact that some lower class dwellers do voice their opinions, there are still a number of other symptoms that point to an imbalance in terms of isk and time across wspace as a whole.


No.

Another issue I see with c1-c4 loot is it being market dependent. Blue loot is the main source of income in the deep wormholes. I would like to see the same in c1-c4 wormholes.

Don't know where this guy came from but we don't take kindly to well thought out and insightful replies, 'round here.

...But really, spot on. Especially the "CCP would do good to rather buff certain aspects of our space instead of forcing people out of a gameplay that they have grown accustomed to." +1

I also agree that picking a direction and adding content is more beneficial than doing nothing.

*additional edit*
Once the compression changes happen, w-space will be a little more interesting for indy corps, which is a good deal. It might even make mining in a higher class C not rediculously painful... or any more painful than chewing rocks elsewhere.

C2 corp chiming in here with 5-15+ towers in system, though I wouldn't call us "huge". We encourage semi-personal towers for asset security purposes; the effects of corp theft are minimized and are discouraged in general because of the segmented approach making it easier to pinpoint the culprit.

Our method of running sites in our C4 static nets about 100m ISK/hr per character (not necessarily just player) for a decent run; throw in alts, and ISK/hr/player increases. Multibox the sites solo for amazing (non-escalation) ISK/hr. If everyone is max-skilled, ISK/hr increases as well, while lower skills reduces the ISK/hr.

We also have a mix of gas/ore site sleeper farming, gas harvesting, PI, and industry; sleepers in gas sites are more lucrative than C2 anoms. Some newer players were used to hisec exploration before they joined, and still do some of that. A few people still run polymer reactions but they're not making much at it. C3-FTM is the only useful reaction to run at the moment, and that takes a fair bit of hauling unless you can mine the gas in your home system or static (we don't have that option). I'm not aware of anyone currently running drug labs, which have a minimal usefulness for us anyway because of the Hisec highway between engagements. Systems that open into us tend to get farmed as well when everything calms down and W-space goes to sleep.

The real money-maker aside from static Sleeper income is T2 production. It's rather sad and unfortunate that wormholers need to stoop to Nullsec production to have a good industry income.

One hour a couple of days per week and you have your plex for the month; it's usually easy to get a farming group going. PI and/or industry pays for tower costs. Excesses go toward fattening of the wallets. The random merc job also helps, as does not dying so much :)


They're actually not as overpowered as you might think; they weren't really able to improve our ISK/hr above present levels. However they do look shiny on the field, and make a nice kill when you catch them in bastion mode and unable to flee :)


Market-dependent isn't so bad, except when CCP nerfs to the ground the end products of the market-loot that we harvest. If "sleeper salvage" wasn't so dependent solely on ribbon prices, it would be better. Blue loot does need to be scaled properly, as it's the W-space alternative to K-space bounties, but the relative costs between blue loot and salvage means salvage will always be more a significant part of Basic/Intermediate sleeper farming compared to Advanced sleeper farming.

Maybe it means C2 sites need to be shaken up a little with different sleepers in them, or maybe it means sleeper loot tables need to be adjusted, or maybe both.

You can indeed run T2 production in Hisec with the only difference being the permits or whatever they are for running a Hisec tower. You can't harvest moons in W-space, since that would compete with Nullsec. It's not especially profitable to run moongoo reactions in W-space since you have to purchase and ship the raw materials, though you can, and I did for a little while before tiring of the constant market manipulation.

But I called it "Nullsec production" because it directly benefits Nullsec: their moongoo reactions are resold on the market, purchased by industrialists, and then further processed. A portion of the base materials originate exclusively in Nullsec (or a random lucky Lowsec system). Not in W-space. I've said it before: every T2 ship exploded benefits Nullsec while every T3 ship exploded benefits W-space.

There are no incentives for any kind of wormhole-specific industry in W-space except for C3-FTM polymer reactions which are easily matched and surpassed by T2 production for the same CPU/PG usage and less hauling. It helps you remember which child is the princess and which is the red-headed step-child.

Yeah, 10 mil per was nice. And it has been so long since then. I still catch myself thinking they're 5 mil each.

Question though: do you or anyone else know off the top of your heads the names of any of the other sleeper salvage? The only one I can think of is Heuristic Selfassemblers, just because it sounds cool to me. If they were all worth something, unlike now, we wouldn't have to worship the almighty nanoribbon so fervently. I'm concerned about what they're going to do to T3s.

c1s aren't a bad place to do reactions from what I understand. But t2 production is really invention, component manufacturing, and finally the t2 production. And the best place for this is definitely hisec. But if you're talking about moongoo reactions (obv not mining), are they what you meant by "the real money-market .... is T2 production?" Because you just said its not especially profitable.


Can't argue with this.

<3 Enders

man... all that took forever to read.....

I live in a C4/C4 (antisocial ftw) hole at the moment. I've also lived in C3s, and did a brief run in a C6. I see the gap between the C1-4s and C5+ is caused mainly by the fear the lower class dwellers have of the higher class people. In the 1st WH corp i was in the CEO actually told us to never talk to other people from w-space, for fear of big bad people coming to kill all our towers and blow up all of our stuff. I see this mentality from quite a few lower class w-space people as well. (Complete local silence at all times [even when the hostiles obviously know you're there], not responding to PMs, not using the forums, and turtling up as soon as a covert-ops comes through a hole and just logging off)

Some of this behavior can be blamed on the people being 'carebears' or them just being overly paranoid. But i believe a majority of these reactions come from the once bitten twice shy realm of thought. They realize quickly that their dinky PvE fleet has a good chance of being complete whipped off the field if that covert-ops has a 10-20 man PvP fleet complete with a hic and full logi support following right behind. Pair that with the problem that a lot of the lower class wormholers do not have the numbers to match a fleet like that, they just log out, and hope when they log back in the next day the scary heilos and hypothetical fleet are gone.

So in my humble opinion, it boils down to a numbers game. There might technically be more people living in C1-4s, but they are more splintered than the C5+ corps. Barring a few cases of C2 corps that tax all those who want to pass by their domain with blood and fire. Or the PvP-centric corps based out of some C4s and C3s I've seen. Otherwise it's a bunch of small corps hiding out in unknown space, and they fear anything they do or say can reduce their assets to a rookie ship in 1 trit. Also remember even if the show info says they have 100+ members a good amount of those are most likely alts, or inactive at any given time.


As for the theory of an ISK differences causing the lack of fleets willing to engage, I do not see that as a problem. As its been said running WH sites in any class isn't exactly crap income. Even with RL responsibilities (9-11 hour work days) I make enough money farming C4s in about 10 days of logging in to PLEX my 2 accounts. Any extra ISK goes to my PvP ships, which if you look at my kill boards, you can see I'm not adverse to throwing into a meat grinder for the glory of Bob. So while i would love to make more ISK for the same (or slightly more, depending on the fleet comps) work, via escalations, I see that just helping the price of nanoribbons drop even more.

In regards of adding the extra static to C4s, I honestly think it would be more logical to add them to C5s. This would give the 2nd highest and 2nd lowest class dual statics, and they could make the extra one spawn to any random WH instead of 1 lower and 1 higher like in the C2s. Limit the mass to whatever hole it spawns to, so that the lower classes don't have to fear a cap coming through, but still allowing the C5 corps to roll for the chance for more fights. It's important to keep in mind the lower class WHs should be where we let the w-space noobs come in and get there bearings, having a chance of a carrier paired with a 20 man T3 fleet is kinda counter productive to this. They could also add more wandering in and out of C4s to bridge the gaps more evenly, and maybe even give us at least lowsec wanderings (pipedream.)

Now i know the thought of enforcing any kind of fair fighting on the entire w-space community is laughable. And i know when I roll into a hole that has miners, or a content fleet out, I will get on the comms for anyone to get into a pewpew ship and come blow stuff up. (now depending on if I get enough back up to kill anything [we're plagued by those low numbers available I was speaking of earlier] I still might not engage [unless I'm bored and feel like doing something slightly suicidal]) But after the fight if i can tell they don't quite know what they are doing, I will try to give them advise.

Hmmm.... seems like i have been rambling....

TL:DR:: New people in w-space are hesitant to make contact with people, don't want to engage fights in which they will lose, and usually don't have the numbers to throw against any well organized PvP corp. They should however be making enough ISK to replace losses (if they are doing it right)

Then again, what do I know?

~Proph