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Crime & Punishment

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We Are Whetstone

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#21 - 2014-03-21 00:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Bing Bangboom wrote:
When Whetstone first made its appearance on I encouraged them to pursue this line of emergent gameplay. It is sorely needed as the New Order continues to expand across highsec. Everyone, no matter how many hundreds of miners bumped or ganked, has room for improvement and I do not exclude myself.

I found a Covetor mining in Erenta a few weeks back. He was alone in an asteroid belt, lasers melting, and sitting immobile... right next to a Mobile Depot. I have never seen a miner with a MD sitting next to it and, at the time, paid it no mind. I decloaked, scanned the mining ship and found it to be lightly tanked. It would be no problem in this .6 system. Cloaked back up and moved to my warpin spot.

Now comes the Destroyer.

A Catalyst to be exact. I feinted to the north, flew my attack profile, came in under radar and locked and fired. The shields barely moved. I pounded away with all eight Light Ion Blaster IIs, making little headway. CONCORD eventually showed up and did the usual. I had barely scratched him.

Decloaking again I scanned down the Covetor to find it tanked in every slot except the mining lasers. I had been had nicely.

So, what happened? The miner, actually the pvper who used a Covetor for bait, had seen me decloak and had used the MD to swap out his alluring negligee of bot aspirancy for hard steel and shiny hardeners, not the good kind. I fell right into his trap and justifiably lost the battle. I wished him a GF at which point he told me he had actually come to Erenta to take me on. A great victory for him and a valuable lesson to me.

The speed with which the New Order has established its dominance of highsec and the futility of (most) of the carebears to resist has created the idea that every Agent is fully knowledgeable about the Code and receives its full power. The reality is that it takes a while to become as invincible as the Savior of Highsec and the rest of us are only on a path to that level of rightousness. The Code protects us, gives us strength and guides us to the bot aspirants but you have to work WITH it, not against it.

Whetstone exists to keep us on the straight and narrow. I wish them great success.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

I love it when we achieve a loss on the battlefield, and still achieve all of the goals of our war - forcing miners to play EVE, not ISK Progressquest.

Salute to the miner in question for setting a well-thought trap, and salute to James 315 for creating the context in which such a trap was needed.

I always learn more from lost fights than ones I win.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance.

Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#22 - 2014-03-21 06:04:12 UTC
Whetstone getting The New Order squared away.

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-03-21 12:17:09 UTC
Kyperion wrote:

Warriors without a larger sense of purpose and without Honor are merely murderers.

The true warrior knows that a resolution to die gives rise to a higher state of life. The honor lies in knowing your path.

The warrior should reside in all of us in Eve, not just the bumpers and the gankers.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Rote Kapelle
#24 - 2014-03-21 17:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Fabulous! I look forward to being sharpened by the finest high sec has to offer! I was trying to think of a rebel group worth mentioning yesterday when a new player was asking who actually opposes the new order, and I was forced to mention some groups that haven't been active in high sec for months. I will certainly direct him towards Whetstone!

EDIT: I noticed that on minerbumping you mentioned a lack of tank on catalysts, and how this violates the code. Nowhere in the code is tanking ships mentioned. As agents we encourage miners to fit a tank but it is not required. the primary requirements put forward in the code are below for your reference. Most of the rest of the code clarifies these requirements.

- Mining indulgences may be purchased for 10 million isk per character, and are good for one year, subject to forfeiture.

- Miners should strive not only to avoid botting, but to avoid even the appearance of botting.

- Bot-aspirant behavior is not permitted.

- No AFK mining allowed. All miners are expected to remain at their keyboards at all times, and are required to prove their presence by responding in local when requested by the Supreme Protector or one of his Agents.

- New Order territory is a safe space for suicide gankers. Miners are required to put aside their prejudices and treat gankers with respect.

- Upon being suicide ganked, a miner should congratulate the ganker on his success. A "good fight" or "gf" in local is customary.

- No excessive mining. Miners should not fall into a routine of mining all day. I want well-rounded people in my system, not ice-mining machines.

- Keep local clean. Miners should be courteous in local and should refrain from the use of profanity.

- Respect for elected officials. As Saviour of Highsec, I acted as proxy when electing myself Supreme Protector. Miners should respect the will exercised by the people when they made this choice.

- The New Order of Highsec continues to recognize The Mittani as the legitimate Chairman of the CSM. This determination remains the rule in all New Order territories.

- Prejudice toward minorities is not permitted. For the sake of clarity, this cannot apply to all groups claiming minority status, but only discrete and insular minorities, which are defined as suicide gankers, Goons, and others who oppose highsec mining.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Matrea D
Maggie's Magical Miners
#25 - 2014-03-21 20:06:58 UTC
This is the type of emergent gameplay that I have grown to embrace and love in the months I have been around EvE. The well-written stories that come after are just the cherry on top.

Whetstone Prime
#26 - 2014-03-24 04:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Whetstone Prime
We are Whetstone,

Questions have been asked of us, now we present our answers:

To Shederov Blood: To the Agent in question, and to all his ilk, we say that: New Order Agents have been rather polite as they speak in Local and are cordial even in defeat. In our silence we salute them.

To BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie: First we honestly hope that we are not the best High Sec has to offer, but we go forth knowing that what we have to offer is always our best.

We have read the Code, and after having witnessed first hand the Destroyer's of the New Order we must refine our statement as to how the Catalyst befouls the Code. First let us look to the Code to find the words that support our claim. We thank you for editing your post to bring it upon our thread. At first glance, perhaps you are right that the Code is empty on if a miner should fit a tank to his ship and it is only the encouraging words of Agents that have spread that message. We read the Code again and upon the third line, understanding comes upon us.

-Bot-aspirant behavior is not permitted.

Five little words, but lo, the meat and potatoes behind those words, the weight they carry into our souls. Let us ask ourselves what is Bot-aspirant, there are many definitions to that sentence, a prism of understanding that waves upon all that look upon it. When we look upon it, it speaks to us that any behavior where you engage in an activity and expect nothing in that activity to engage back.

To exist in a universe that simply let you slip through, unseen, unnoticed. Like a wraith, looking upon the universe but unable to really interact with it. Tiny fragments of motion perhaps, but no lingering effects. What a sad and sullen existence to simply view the universe but not be part of it. We do not wish this existence to be upon any soul, for it destroys what humanity exists still within them. We stand up and say, "The universe will notice us, we will have an impact upon it and it will remember us." We breathe it's recycled air, we fire it's anti-matter, we caress it's torpedoes and we know we are alive.

We expect the universe to see us, that act upon us and we feel alive for it. The AFK miner, he does not expect this, is satisfied listing about from one rock to another, praying that the universe ignores him. This to us is Bot-aspirant behavior, to play in such a manner that you expect never to enter contact with anything that would act upon them. They expect all the actions to go in one direction, from them towards the universe and doing so in a manner that they expect the universe to never acknowledge that they are. This is wrong to us, these five words scream that you must allow the universe to know you exist. You must be prepared to receive it's acknowledgment. It is this reason we believe the Code demands that a miner tank his ship, he must be prepared to interact with the universe around him.

But lo, the Code is absolute, it applies to all the Children upon which the Order rests, for no one should be above the Code. In this we believe the Catalyst has failed the Code. It is not just the lack of tank, as we have seen, it is the lack of any preparation to the universe to act upon it. The Catalyst has only the one function, to act upon the universe and expect to receive nothing back until Concord appears to finish it. In Modern High Sec, everyone must go all in, half-way measures would not be acceptable in null sec, it should not be here as well. There are many we believe that will write off the Agents, collateral damage of the fight for High Sec, but we are not giving up on your souls. We will help you be a better warrior, to sharpen you to a keen edge. We love you and for this we open fire upon you.

And in this, we bring our Sharpening: The Mining Rokh

Once more, we set the stage and prime the players. Waiting for the audience to arrive. We position our Rokh safely within the belt, jet can, as in the olden days, by its side and Badger aligned to warp out. Our Operatives wait, this tempting scene and within hours are rewarded with two Agents coming into the warp in point. Sending the Badger to the station and popping the Jet Can as they slowly approach. It was like watching two lions creep upon a gazelle, and as they came into range, they yellow box our "miner", who in turned locked them back. The two slowed, either coming to their arranged distance or confused by being locked. Perhaps it is simply a newb that has not turned off his lock-back feature. There was no warning, only small blaster fire that echoed through the darkness. As the Rokh's shields started to deplete, they suddenly slowed and healed back, for this was no gazelle standing in the tall grass. It was an Operative Blokh, fully armed, shielded and hardened for Catalyst's hybrids. Instead of mining lasers, large blasters turned upon the nearest Cat. The fight ended quickly, Concord's assistance was really not required. Why did these Cat's die so quickly you may ask yourself

The haunting words uttered not that long ago echo in our hearts and minds.

"It wasn't ment to be shot at"

Is that not at least one facet of Bot-aspirantcy? To exist in the universe but feel that you weren't ment to be shot at? Are there not many ways to remove a Catalyst from a fight that the Agent fit does not plan for.

We intend to run a series of exercises so that we continue to expound upon this point in future Sharpenings.

One ship at a time, one heart at a time. Well sometimes to two ships and hearts at a time, We are changing this feeling.

Uncertainty, anonymity, these are as much our shields as they are our sabers. We strike from the shadows, we retreat to them once more. To quote a great Agent, High Sec is certainly worth fighting for.

These are our words,

We are Whetstone
We welcome all Agents to the Sharpening.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#27 - 2014-03-24 05:02:26 UTC
What is it with anti-NO rebels and all the crazy roleplaying?

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance.

Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#28 - 2014-03-24 05:04:16 UTC
The haunting words uttered not that long ago echo in our hearts and minds.

"It wasn't ment to be shot at"

Is that not at least one facet of Bot-aspirantcy? To exist in the universe but feel that you weren't ment to be shot at? Are there not many ways to remove a Catalyst from a fight that the Agent fit does not plan for.

And thus it is written and spoken.


"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Rote Kapelle
#29 - 2014-03-24 06:43:26 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
What is it with anti-NO rebels and all the crazy roleplaying?

I'm actually enjoying this one, and a lot of what NO does could be classified as role play.

"The catalyst is not meant to be shot at". This is not an issue. The issue with tanks and bot aspirancy is in expecting to be safe without fitting a tank, and not taking the appropriate means to defend yourself or accept your loss. In the case you have outlined, the agents should accept their loss and attempt a different method of ganking the rokh.

Consider this. If an agent fits a tank on a catalyst, they can reach approx 7k ehp at the cost of 3/4ths of their dps. You can do the math here, but is surviving maybe one additional shot from a Rokh worth the cost of having to use three more catalysts to achieve the same damage? Hardly. It is far more efficient for an agent to bring in additional dps and force the rokh to split guns.

Bot aspirancy does not lie in the fit of a ship. It lies in the capsuleer's actions. In the given case, a variety of mistakes were made, but they were not the fault of the lack of tank on gank ships. The rokh should have been ship and cargo scanned prior to the gank. The catalyst pilots should have checked if shield hardners were on. Any and all information gained from this step should have been used to evaluate the proper method to kill the Rokh.

Any agent or individual caught flying a fail fit ship and not taking appropriate precautions deserves what's coming for them, but this does not necessarily mean that they are bot-aspirants. That should be determined by their reaction to the loss of their ship.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-03-24 12:59:37 UTC
As the main of a self confessed carebear, this thread both amuses me, and makes me want to play better. Kudos Whetstone.
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-03-24 14:36:58 UTC
Not sure OP is accomplishing what is being professed. I suspect Agents understand "live by the sword, die by the sword".

More content should be welcomed by all. Your writeup was interesting and it's always good to read on different tactics.


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#32 - 2014-03-24 16:28:36 UTC
How I counter NO:

1. Tank up
2. Bring escort
3. Watch overview

Simple and effective. I have been ganked once because I neglected to do this. But they normally won't try to gank you if it looks like you won't pop.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
#33 - 2014-03-24 19:13:42 UTC
I have encountered this a few times in my ganking. Its a good strategy. Fortunately, Catalysts are cheap.

I often fall for this sort of bait because some of the times I end up getting the kill anyway.
Winchester Steele
#34 - 2014-03-25 00:48:50 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Shederov Blood wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Holy shite this is a new level of delusion, and so long you can't even quote it.

*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.
*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
I would have thought someone like yourself would have loved the fact that they are baiting and killing gankers.

such a wall of text I couldn't get myself to read past the part where it first mentions 'the code'

tortured myself to read the whole thing.... and well, blah...

If the good people of highsec are going to band together to **** up some code wankers, we don't need walls of text to justify it. A simple "We're taking our space back from the cultist cabal" would suffice.

and besides, even if you want to RP it; 'The Code' of the Warrior is defense of the helpless, and its just that simple.

No fancy language, no elaborate schemes, just the path of Honor.

Your the only wanker I see here, for CODE. or against. HTH.


Subject 4927
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-03-25 03:07:57 UTC
Why do people have to make such simple things such as murdering miners who don't follow the rules into some creepy cult like service.

Death should be kept simple.

Real Serious PVPer
#36 - 2014-03-25 03:39:29 UTC
Not enough serious PVP in this for me to be worth getting involved in.

[b] Serious about being serious- Putting the "P "into PVP one fight at a time.  MUFC[/b]

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#37 - 2014-03-25 05:24:13 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
I have encountered this a few times in my ganking. Its a good strategy. Fortunately, Catalysts are cheap.

I often fall for this sort of bait because some of the times I end up getting the kill anyway.

Yeah my attitude is usually to 'YOLO' it when there might be an anti-ganker around.

Losses are better lessons than successful kills usually.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#38 - 2014-03-25 06:45:12 UTC
This shtick seems vaguely familiar.......
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-03-27 19:08:56 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:

'we think some of the NO are bad at what they do, we want to make them not bad by cunning application of elementary tactics'

then add Kyperions usual crap about cultists and season to taste.

That summary was much more legible and meaningful. Pretty cool concept really. I'm pretty new the New Order myself, but I'm working to make myself better.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-03-27 19:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tengu Grib
I do have something to say about the "It wasn't meant to be shot at" talk.

Maybe someone will disagree with me on this, but to me there are two different types of "it wasn't meant to be shot at" claims which have very different meanings.

tl;dr version: "It wasn't meant to be shot at." doesn't always mean "I am bot aspirant and think high sec should be a safe place to live."

1. "I am in high sec and CONCORD will protect me so I do not need to fit a tank because I am safe."

- This type of thinking is attributed to a number of people in high sec including untanked miners, autopiloting freighters, untanked industrials... the list goes on.
-This type of thinking is poisonous to Eve and should be swiftly punished by any agents in the area, or anyone with the firepower and the will to make High Sec a better place.

2. "This ships is going to explode no matter what so I don't need a tank." Or, "this fit is designed for one purpose and one purpose only, getting shot at by a competent well prepared enemy is not that purpose."

examples: If I do not fit a tank on a thorax before going into battle then I should fully expect to get my ass handed to me and would be silly if I complained when I lost that ship. However if I fit a tank on a catalyst that is to be used for a suicide gank, I am an idiot and deserve to be blasted apart by CONCORD with my target still happily in half shields because my fit is horrible.

The gank catalyst is not meant to be shot at by a serious combat opponent. If I were to take a gank fit catalyst into a fight against a war target, I'm going to die. Quickly. Because that fit is not meant to be shot at.

If your gank target has a tank fit and combat drones, it's possible he'll kill you before CONCORD even shows up. And that would be a job well done for the gank target, and a bad tactical choice on the part of the ganker. However this situation doesn't happen very often, most gank targets are unprepared to fend off attackers and don't defend themselves in an effective manner, instead relying on CONCORD for protection.

A similar argument could be made for other purpose built fits. There are situations where "it wasn't meant to be shot at" can be more accurately translated to mean "it wasn't designed to be shot at by any credible threat and if that does actually happen it will likely explode in a ball of fire and hilarity because of some horrible mistake I made."

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

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